The lack of employment/Laid off/Thread

rickhamilton620

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I looked at work-study positions at school: It's pretty damn thin, but expected for the sort of satellite campus HACC York is. (It's literally three buildings in somewhat random places in a...not kidding...industrial park.) Here's what they offer:
  • Security Kiosk Secretary - 10:30 to 1:30 pm M-F 5:00 to 8:00 pm M-F - 8.00 an hour - Greet visitors, issue ID cards/stickers, answer phone
  • Goodling Receptionist - 9 am to 12pm and 12pm to 3 pm - 7.50 an hour - copy/fax/type/file maintenance, assist w/ coordinating college events and bulk mailings, etc.
  • Circulation Desk worker - Hours and Pay unknown - Toughest requirements for entry (30 day probationary period, Dewey Decimal System knowledge requirement)
I'm considering Security Kiosk Secretary. It matches my pay at CVS and IIRC has the most hours to work available during the week. It's a bit meh work, and I hope I don't have to wear a Security uniform...but whatever it takes right?

I'd consider the Circ. Desk work as I've done it before (4 years in two high schools as a volunteer) and I liked it. But the hours and pay weren't listed (A very bad sign that both would be pretty shitty...not helped that the library is absolutely tiny) and the requirements for entry are surprisingly strict with a 30 day probationary period. (who knows....this could easily be unpaid time....not an option for me)
 

argatoga

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That would be true if people went to college and got degrees that are semi useful. I think the universities should be ashamed of themselves for letting so many students become psychology and sociology majors, do people really expect to get a job with majors like those?

Looking at the demographics vs. jobs at my company alone, you can immediately see the problem. In the computer engineering, electrical engineering, and computer science side of things at my company, almost all of the employess are from Asia (Indian, Chinese, Pakistani, etc.). Why is this? because no one in this country wants to man up and learn this stuff in college because it's "too hard" or they had such poor math and science programs at their high schools that they were never inspired with the possibility to express themselves with numbers.

The worst part is, in the US, this trend will get worse. As our industries in this country keep moving further away from manufacturing and production and moving closer and closer to service. The demand for information technology will continue to grow and grow and the current generation of students will not be ready.
I've seen many engineering and computer science graduates incapable of writing coherent documentation. The shamed degrees you listed requires strong writing and researching skills. If you think those are unimportant read a GNU info page.
 

ChelsDS

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oh oh oh I has no job! Cue boredom!

Thankfully I have enough money to pay my bills till December, need to find a job ASAP though. I can do either art stuff (sadly no 4 year degree), assistant work, clerical work or if worse comes to worse, retail.

It's been forever since I've seen day time talk shows and soap operas.
 

Cellos88GT

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I've seen many engineering and computer science graduates incapable of writing coherent documentation. The shamed degrees you listed requires strong writing and researching skills. If you think those are unimportant read a GNU info page.
I would beg to differ, all engineers at some point need to learn how to write lab reports and compose sentences that help express their data and experimentation techniques. Yes the style of writing may not translate well to the public but that is of little importance as what counts is the factual content not the opinions of the author. However, that is an argument for another thread.

More importantly, I would like to stress that I'm not shaming the nature of those degrees. The degrees themselves do nothing wrong, conversely that particular knowledge in the right hands is paramount in today's society. My shame is being placed on the people that pick those degrees as a default just to get themselves through college. They lack the passion to make use of the benefits provided by such areas of study. This is important when you view this through the eye of society; college is not just an investment made by an individual, it's also an investment made by society. When there are students sitting idle after graduating college because there are too many of them with same focus of study, you have a broken institutional system. The Universities can't keep churning out students with degrees that have no purpose in the business world. It's not fair to the students, it's not fair to the businesses need the manpower to run their company, and finally it is not fair to the society that has invested it's resources into these students expecting them to provide a more prosperous society.

I hope some of that makes sense. I'm pretty exhausted and not sober so my apologies if it is incoherent.
 

argatoga

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I'm talking more of the ability to form an objective argumentative work on a variety of topics. Not just technical ones.
 

Cellos88GT

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I'm talking more of the ability to form an objective argumentative work on a variety of topics. Not just technical ones.
Ok, well I don't want to get into this discussion here. If you wish to continue feel free to shoot me a PM. From what I've seen so far at work, there is very little opportunity to write on topics that require objective argumentative work.
 

argatoga

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Ok, well I don't want to get into this discussion here. If you wish to continue feel free to shoot me a PM. From what I've seen so far at work, there is very little opportunity to write on topics that require objective argumentative work.
I'm too tired to argue on this too. :p If someone wants to create a thread I'll comment on that tomorrow.
 

Dr_Grip

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I'm not shaming the nature of those degrees.

[...]

My shame is being placed on the people that pick those degrees as a default just to get themselves through college. They lack the passion to make use of the benefits provided by such areas of study.

[...]

I hope some of that makes sense. I'm pretty exhausted and not sober so my apologies if it is incoherent.
You really don't see the contradiction between the first two sentences, do you? Saying that you can basically sail through college on a liberal arts or social science major while all the poor engineers work their asses off is nothing but disrespecting and shaming the amount of hard work that goes into non-technical degrees. Many people think like you. Some of these even are stupid enough to enroll in a liberal arts major.

That's why 50% or the philosophy freshmen never finish their degree. Cause it's fucking hard work. A different kind of work than what you'd see in engineering or computer science, but hard work never the less.

And the apology? Well, I'll base my acceptance of it on your reply ;)
 

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Looking at the demographics vs. jobs at my company alone, you can immediately see the problem. In the computer engineering, electrical engineering, and computer science side of things at my company, almost all of the employess are from Asia (Indian, Chinese, Pakistani, etc.). Why is this? because no one in this country wants to man up and learn this stuff in college because it's "too hard" or they had such poor math and science programs at their high schools that they were never inspired with the possibility to express themselves with numbers.
I started college in 1987 majoring in Computer Science at an engineering school and saw it then. Tons of foreign students and professors, to the point where it's rare to encounter other Americans, and that's been my experience in nearly 20 years in the field. I feel like I've traveled the world without leaving the state with the amount of people I've worked with from around the world. Every so often I pause to look around at how many people around me are Americans and not here on visas and it does get shocking -- I'd say 30%. Many tech jobs just assume their candidates will be here on a visa. Sometimes the cultural touchstones you'd just naturally expect people to have aren't there, because they aren't from here. Nothing xenophobic about it, but it often feels like I'm the one working overseas when a cultural reference falls dead on the floor. I've worked for big companies like IBM and LSI and CNet, but mostly at small startups in the Princeton area.

Part of the problem is the decay of our education system, which is unmaskable.

Our so-called smart students usually chase the easy money and the predestined paths to riches, i.e. lawyers and to a lesser degree doctors and MBAs. My problem with lawyers is they are parasites on society, they don't produce anything, they are a drain on the people who are (and remember I'm speaking more from the intellectual property & patent perspective than criminal law). A society that doesn't PRODUCE anything will not stay healthy.

The worst part is, in the US, this trend will get worse. As our industries in this country keep moving further away from manufacturing and production and moving closer and closer to service. The demand for information technology will continue to grow and grow and the current generation of students will not be ready.
Actually it's no safe haven there either. We reached the point in the early 2000s where these jobs too are bleeding to India and China. The only choice is to move up the food chain and become product managers, etc. I feel bad for anybody entering this industry as a fresh graduate, as compared to when I entered the workforce.

For a while, the assumption here was that we may lose the manufacturing but we'll continue to do everything else here in the states and that's the more lucrative part. Only now you have to realize that assumption is flawed; we can send those jobs overseas too, as we've already seen with call centers and engineering jobs. Is it so hard to imagine in the coming decade(s) that this won't happen with everything? Why do you need an American lawyer when you can get one in India who knows American law and works for 1/5th the price? Or a doctor who remotely diagnoses you in China for 1/4 of what you pay a doctor here? Folks, this stuff is coming.

Right now we're at the point where the guys who poured in here on student and work visas during the 80s and 90s have gone home and started their own companies, and they pull cheap talent out of their home universities. Increasingly, people are coming here for their educations and then going straight home to work, not even bothering to work in the US before returning. That's brain drain. Worse, the US makes it VERY, VERY HARD to retain these people even when they want to stay. It takes years to get your green card and you have to be sponsored by your company and the process can take upwards of 5 years, and it's non-transferable. Most startups won't last 5 years. We have millions of unskilled people illegally streaming across the borders but we make it impossible for highly skilled people like engineers to stay here.

I know what I cost a company to employ, and someone can hire several young PhDs in China or an army of Indian engineers for my salary. Granted, over time their salaries will increase and make them more expensive, but it will take decades.

Since the late 1990s part of being a software developer is working with teams of cheap developers overseas as your subordinates -- in India, in China, in Russia. Get used to midnight conference calls and language barriers.

If you work for a big company, the chances are 100% they have opened offices in Bangalore or Shen Zen in the past 10 or 20 years.

A good example of where we are now is to look at Apple's model -- designed in California, made in China. This is the final fortified position, that the people here in the US still do the design and painting with a large brush our "partners" overseas aren't able yet to take the next step of design and creation, at least not very well. When they figure that out, and when they start to innovate, it's over. That's all we have left. And don't think for a second that your "partners" overseas aren't trying to rob you blind and steal your technology, at least until you have an established long-term relationship with them. I saw knockoff products with my company's code months after they did a production run for us. It's an intellectual property free-for-all over there, and they're just grabbing everything they can get.
 
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Cellos88GT

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janstett, I couldn't agree more with you. I agree that comp-sci isn't a safe haven and as you say, nothing is, really. But alas this is the result of a free-market society, its great for the upper echelons of society but it sucks for everyone else.

You really don't see the contradiction between the first two sentences, do you? Saying that you can basically sail through college on a liberal arts or social science major while all the poor engineers work their asses off is nothing but disrespecting and shaming the amount of hard work that goes into non-technical degrees. Many people think like you. Some of these even are stupid enough to enroll in a liberal arts major.

That's why 50% or the philosophy freshmen never finish their degree. Cause it's fucking hard work. A different kind of work than what you'd see in engineering or computer science, but hard work never the less.

And the apology? Well, I'll base my acceptance of it on your reply ;)
No, I don't see the contradiction because I'm talking about two of the most popular majors in this country not the liberal arts as a whole. The education of psychology and sociology in this country has become so diluted that it doesn't nearly require as much work as it used to. The majors themselves are important and the people who take the study of these subjects seriously are extremely valuable to society. However, that is not what you will find today in america's undergraduate psychology and sociology students at the big volume schools. Kids in these programs care more about the social aspects of college and spend very little time studying, I just don't understand how that is beneficial to society...

I'm not alone on this thought when you consider Business degrees as a kind of social science:

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/04/17/why-look-down-on-a-business-degree/diluted-degrees

Again I have nothing against the Liberal Arts subject wise, I myself even minored in Italian Literature. I understand that it's hard work when the class is taken seriously. It's the over saturation of students that has ruined the subjects, universities view majors such as business, psychology, and sociology like cash-crops.
 

argatoga

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janstett, I couldn't agree more with you. I agree that comp-sci isn't a safe haven and as you say, nothing is, really. But alas this is the result of a free-market society, its great for the upper echelons of society but it sucks for everyone else.



No, I don't see the contradiction because I'm talking about two of the most popular majors in this country not the liberal arts as a whole. The education of psychology and sociology in this country has become so diluted that it doesn't nearly require as much work as it used to. The majors themselves are important and the people who take the study of these subjects seriously are extremely valuable to society. However, that is not what you will find today in america's undergraduate psychology and sociology students at the big volume schools. Kids in these programs care more about the social aspects of college and spend very little time studying, I just don't understand how that is beneficial to society...

I'm not alone on this thought when you consider Business degrees as a kind of social science:

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/04/17/why-look-down-on-a-business-degree/diluted-degrees

Again I have nothing against the Liberal Arts subject wise, I myself even minored in Italian Literature. I understand that it's hard work when the class is taken seriously. It's the over saturation of students that has ruined the subjects, universities view majors such as business, psychology, and sociology like cash-crops.
I worked my ass off for my B.A. (in History). Just because it isn't engineering doesn't mean that anyone can pass it.
 

Cellos88GT

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I worked my ass off for my B.A. (in History). Just because it isn't engineering doesn't mean that anyone can pass it.
Did you even read what I wrote? Where did I say anyone can pass history?
 
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Cellos88GT

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History is a social study.
Too bad I was talking about sociology and psychology, no where did I mention history and no where did I make a blanket statement that covers the entire social science umbrella. On top of that, I'm not even knocking the subject themselves, I'm knocking the way the university has transformed the programs to cater to the masses.

But since you insist on making this a debate with an "us vs them" mentality I will say this: I have taken; upper division history classes, upper division language classes, upper division literature classes, and an upper division art history class, none of them were able to hold a flame to my upper division physics classes in terms of difficulty. I spent far more time in the library per class than I have with any of the aforementioned classes. There is a reason engineering/science has higher failure rates than other subjects, it's not coincidence.

... and apparently someone doesn't know how a proof works.
 
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argatoga

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Too bad I was talking about sociology and psychology, no where did I mention history and no where did I make a blanket statement that covers the entire social science umbrella. On top of that, I'm not even knocking the subject themselves, I'm knocking the way the university has transformed the programs to cater to the masses.
No, I don't see the contradiction because I'm talking about two of the most popular majors in this country not the liberal arts as a whole. The education of psychology and sociology in this country has become so diluted that it doesn't nearly require as much work as it used to. The majors themselves are important and the people who take the study of these subjects seriously are extremely valuable to society. However, that is not what you will find today in america's undergraduate psychology and sociology students at the big volume schools. Kids in these programs care more about the social aspects of college and spend very little time studying, I just don't understand how that is beneficial to society...

I'm not alone on this thought when you consider Business degrees as a kind of social science:

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/04/17/why-look-down-on-a-business-degree/diluted-degrees
You also accepted the general term "social science" when used by Dr_Grip. Words matter.

But since you insist on making this a debate with an "us vs them" mentality I will say this: I have taken; upper division history classes, upper division language classes, upper division literature classes, and an upper division art history class, none of them were able to hold a flame to my upper division physics classes in terms of difficulty. I spent far more time in the library per class than I have with any of the aforementioned classes. There is a reason engineering/science has higher failure rates than other subjects, it's not coincidence.
Care to list these upper division classes?
 

rickhamilton620

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Update: I've got a job offer! :dance:

Of course being me, it has some drawbacks:

It's in fact CVS, although this time I'd be working in the Pharmacy. I've always had trepidation working in the pharmacy part of the store (i've done it twice) as it's very much a fast paced environment. Looking in the waiting bins for people's stuff has seemed overwhelming at times. The question is, can I handle it...or will I fold up like a cheap suit?

Good news: it's 20 hours a week. I need to see how it'll fit into my schedule but it's more than what the security kiosk position offers.

I told her I should know about work study by the end of the week, monday at the latest...(giving myself valuable time to think about the security kiosk position)

I really don't know which to choose? :S
 

Cellos88GT

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You also accepted the general term "social science" when used by Dr_Grip. Words matter.
I was providing an example for my point just prior, in fact that article I provided was written by a sociologist.

Care to list these upper division classes?
upper division history class: 19th Century Italy and Fascism and Resistance in Italy

upper division literature classes: Dante, Boccaccio, and a class on Novellas

upper division art history: Venetian Art History

upper division language: Intro to Italian Literature, Italian Film (Boccaccio and the Novellas was taught in Italian)
 

argatoga

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I was providing an example for my point just prior, in fact that article I provided was written by a sociologist.
How does the fact that a sociologist wrote that article affect your argument's terminology? You used the reference "social science" as a term thus included all the social sciences.

upper division history class: 19th Century Italy and Fascism and Resistance in Italy

upper division literature classes: Dante, Boccaccio, and a class on Novellas

upper division art history: Venetian Art History

upper division language: Intro to Italian Literature, Italian Film (Boccaccio and the Novellas was taught in Italian)
What level is "upper division" 300, 400, 500, etc?
 

Cellos88GT

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How does the fact that a sociologist wrote that article affect your argument's terminology? You used the reference "social science" as a term thus included all the social sciences.
I used the reference as an example to show that there exists a common opinion that certain majors in various American universities have programs that simply not challenging and allow students to skate by. This occurs in majors where the shear number of students is so large that the process is streamlined and thus the program suffers. The article makes an example out of the business major but the same can be applied to current programs implemented for psychology and sociology majors.

What level is "upper division" 300, 400, 500, etc?
At UC Santa Cruz, it's anything over 100. 200 and above was reserved for graduate courses.
 
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