The Trump Presidency - how I stopped worrying and learned to love the Hair

prizrak

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I remember that. Yet it was you who answered the first to my comment #4355, which was quite unimpressed with Trump.

I know you are not a total Trump supporter, yet it is quite difficult to see you criticizing him as harshly as he deserves (which need not be as harshly as his adversaries usually do).

I think it is better to defend him when it is right to do so and to criticize him hard when he deserves it. Always.
There are a couple of things, I don’t think it’s very fair to bear down on one specific politician due to personal/political differences when said politician is playing same game they all play. I mean Git-Mo is still around and open despite 8 years of “I will close down Git-Mo”

Where I see failures I criticize
 

SirEdward

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That's subjective, isn't it? Personally, I don't think he's perfect by any stretch of the imagination but he has done a lot of good and the country is doing very well as a result.
This is a debatable part to say the least, but it's already fully into the opinion area (well, actually many facts are there to help people defining their own opinions, but again...), so I am not interested in pointing in this direction.

I've always maintained that there are legitimate reasons to criticize him but instead people jump on bandwagons to nowhere that are based on BS.
On the bandwagons things, one of the main problems I see is many people will either go full "he's baaaaaaaad!!!" or go full "he's gooooooood" without honestly evaluating things in a balanced manner.

To you, for example, I would ask what, in Trump's behaviour (not in his political ideas) is bad behaviour and what is good. I ask because if you cannot find anything bad, it probably means you have far less problems with him that you say you have.

There are a couple of things, I don’t think it’s very fair to bear down on one specific politician due to personal/political differences when said politician is playing same game they all play. I mean Git-Mo is still around and open despite 8 years of “I will close down Git-Mo”
I think this game is dangerous, whomever plays it. It is impossible to eradicate, and probably not even really the best thing to do, but it should never be treated like it was fine, because it is not, it undermines the very things that builds up a democracy.

Rather, it should be something that lowers credibility and consensus. I see with my own eyes an everyday acceptance of dangerous behaviours (not just that), and they do exactly what you might expect they do: open the way to more overt subversion of other fundamentals, like no lies, no corruption, no empty promises, no double standard, no manipulation.

Those things should be kept in check at any time, from whatever source.

In Trump, many things are not ok for democracy at a human level and I have not even started with the political ideas. He is surely not alone, but he is in charge now, and so I see him more than the others.

He is not even the worst, I have seen some people, amongst the possible names for the presidency, who were terrifying, and the reason they are not there is because there is a "too much" which is still below their hideous level. Treat "this much" as standard, and the "too much" line will raise to include even worst people, until, one day, the line will be so inclusive you (us all) will have a real problem.
 
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prizrak

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@SirEdward I mostly agree with you, and as someone smarter than myself said “Best thing about Trump is that it got liberals worrying about feds having too much power.

We should absolutely scrutinize every single
word he says and every single action he takes, as we should with all politicians at every level. If this continues beyond Trump then I would personally consider his presidency as a resounding success.
 

LeVeL

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To you, for example, I would ask what, in Trump's behaviour (not in his political ideas) is bad behaviour and what is good. I ask because if you cannot find anything bad, it probably means you have far less problems with him that you say you have.
When it comes to behavior, Trump is a bull in a China shop, which has both advantages and downsides. The advantage is that he plows on until he gets his way and beats his rivals/competition. The downside is that he often comes off as very unpresidential, rude, disrespectful, and untrustworthy. So far this has mostly worked in his favor but I've always said that I wish he would turn it down a notch and stop tweeting altogether.



For all the gloating about Trump winning against Mexico, it now looks like their concessions were agreed to before Trump's tariff threat. All he managed to do was make the US look untrustworthy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/08/us/politics/trump-mexico-deal-tariffs.html
Paywall
 

Blind_Io

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Short version: Mexico agreed to all their concessions months ago (before Trump's tariff threat), and Trump claimed they agreed to buy a bunch of farm goods but there's nothing in the agreement about that and Mexico says they never discussed it and they don't know what he's talking about.

Either Trump is clueless and doesn't know what Mexico already agreed to, or he got played into accepting something they already agreed to.

This is part for the course for Trump: make a bunch of threats and slap a tariff on something. Markets drop, people get pissed. He blames the democrats, Mexico, or anyone but himself and claims he is being treated unfairly; says he will push them around to get what he wants. Then he declares he got what he wanted, even if it has nothing to do with what he first complained about, cancels the tariff. Markets go up because stability is good for growth. Trump declares victory for "fixing" the problem he caused.
 
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LeVeL

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I don't see this story anywhere but the NYT. Can you don't any other sources?
 

Blind_Io

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Why, so you can find some new reason that sources don't matter unless they tell you what you want to hear?
 

gaasc

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No, to verify this is not one of those "inside sources claim" article that could've been done by the guard's wives' golf friends who occasionally plays at a Trump course. It is a reasonable thing to ask considering that if there was something written about this all the media would be on it like children on an ice cream truck, whether they allegedly go 'orange man bad' or not.
 

prizrak

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10 seconds of reading will tell you that all of these reference the original NYT article. I am not trying to shit on NYT, however we have seen before that an article gets essentially reprinted by a bunch of outlets and then later debunked. I am not in any way suggesting that NYT made this up or that it is not true. Simply that having independent confirmation from other sources is a basic necessity at this point.
 

Blind_Io

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You wanted something where you could see the full article without having to pay. Now you are complaining that it's referencing the article I originally linked - because I followed it back to the agency that originally broke the story.
 

prizrak

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You wanted something where you could see the full article without having to pay. Now you are complaining that it's referencing the article I originally linked - because I followed it back to the agency that originally broke the story.
I didn't complain of anything. Lev asked you for a source other than NYT, the ones you provided are reprints of NYT article, which is all I pointed out.

To be completely honest, I don't much care either way. I think tariffs are idiotic, no matter who implements them and I also don't think it's up to MX (or any other foreign country) to secure US border.
 

LeVeL

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Why, so you can find some new reason that sources don't matter unless they tell you what you want to hear?
No, more because I wouldn't use the NYT to wipe my ass. They're notorious for attacking Trump so when I can't find any third party verification of their claims, I tend to be skeptical.
 

Blind_Io

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No, more because I wouldn't use the NYT to wipe my ass. They're notorious for attacking Trump so when I can't find any third party verification of their claims, I tend to be skeptical.
:ROFLMAO: Don't like critique of the person you like? Find the news source that you already agree with!

Trump is being criticized because of how he attempts to run things, the role of the media in a democracy is to create that accountability, not tell you what you want to hear or repeat the talking points of the administration.

I wonder if you are so critical of news stories that you like? Do you also want multiple independent sources for favorable stories, because so far, I haven't seen it in here.
 
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LeVeL

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Do you also want multiple independent sources for favorable stories, because so far, I haven't seen it in here.
Sure! If I ever post anything that you can't find any backup for, let me know and I'll do more digging for additional sources. This is exactly the same as if I posted a Breitbart story praising Trump and you called me out for relying on a biased source with no additional sources - same scenario.
 

public

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"Notorious for attacking Trump"? That's ... bad? I thought taking the man to task is what papers were supposed to do, if they're worth their salt.
 

public

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You mean "Portly tangerine found incompetent and foolish"?
 
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