The Trump Presidency - how I stopped worrying and learned to love the Hair

prizrak

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You would never put your money where your mouth is.
I have flipped off cops and said fuck the police to them before, never even been arrested I suggest not talking about shit you don't know about.
Yelling
will blow up everyone here right now.
is a threat and would be investigated.
Yelling
Death to America
might get you kicked of the mall, which is typically private property, but there would be 0 legal consequences.
You are absolutely liable for your words as much as you are for your actions.
If you mean liable in the sense that people will look at you a certain way based on how you speak, then no shit, if you are talking about legal liability, which is what I think we are talking about, then only in some very specific cases.
The latter probably never pulled the trigger or poured the gas pellets themselves, just said words. And wouldn't you guess, words were enough to make them criminals.
Yes ordering someone to do something illegal is illegal, that's different from your examples of "someone talking about diddling kids" or "killing women"
I knew when pushed you would rationalise, trivialise, and defend him once again.
No I am questioning your evidence as it is extremely lacking. I specifically asked for evidence of him doing something racist rather than saying and that entire list has at best one questionable example.
By your logic, if I say out loud "Black people are inferior to white people" I'm not racist, since I didn't do anything, "I just said it".
You must not read very well (third language and all I guess), I have stated multiple times already that if he is a racist (though I would say his more bigoted or xenophobic than specifically racist but that's splitting hairs) he doesn't seem to act on those beliefs. So sure you can say
Black people are inferior to white people"
but if you never act on it does it actually matter that you think that?

Let me put it a slightly different way for you, all presidents we have ever had in the US were Christian, the Bible considers homosexuality a sin, yet gay marriage has been federally legal since 2015. So does it matter that Obama thought it was a sin?
 

Mr. Nice

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For years on this forum there have been a number of effing idiots making claims about freedom of speech in the United States that are based on their own ideas and not reality.

If the readers of this post would like to see some instances of this, they may want to do a search and find some of those previous threads, some of which I participated in, that contain these discussions where one side is rational and knowledgeable about this subject, and the other has irrational ideas that they think that they can force into being by being a bigger douchebag.

For those who are interested and wish to know the reality of freedom of speech in the United States, please click the following link:

https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does
 

prizrak

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For years on this forum there have been a number of effing idiots making claims about freedom of speech in the United States that are based on their own ideas and not reality.

If the readers of this post would like to see some instances of this, they may want to do a search and find some of those previous threads, some of which I participated in, that contain these discussions where one side is rational and knowledgeable about this subject, and the other has irrational ideas that they think that they can force into being by being a bigger douchebag.

For those who are interested and wish to know the reality of freedom of speech in the United States, please click the following link:

https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does
Literally nothing in that link contradicts what I have been saying....
 

mpicco

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I have flipped off cops and said fuck the police to them before, never even been arrested I suggest not talking about shit you don't know about.
Omg like you're so badass. Watch out for this guy, everybody.

@MrNice , never questioned Trump's rights to say what he says. I question the moral integrity of those who do the mental gymnastics (prizrak) to not accept he's a racist asshole. Like you need to go kill a black guy just cos he's black before you can be labelled as a racist.
 

marcos_eirik

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I’m going to ask you point blank yet again, what does it matter what he believes if he doesn’t act on it?
It matters a lot, because when he says it, as the president of the United States of America, it legitimizes and normalizes racism among people who is capable to act on it, and it strengthens racial prejudice among others. This in turn makes life harder for minorities.

I honestly don't understand why it is so hard to denounce racists, or racist speech. Especially when it comes from the Oval Office, the highest position you can have in the United States of America.

 

gaasc

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To build on your example if you do not want to answer Priz: if you, who I am assuming are not racist, indeed go to a mall and shout "Black people are inferior to white people", would you prefer to be tried for bias-motivated violence (10-to-life, varies by state. Source), or to just be escorted out of the mall clear in the sense that everyone around you thinks you're a massive dick?

Just to make it plain, I am not arguing that Donald Trump is not racist, I am arguing that the checks and balances are working to the point that it's of relative unimportance if he is, policy-wise. I do see @marcos_eirik 's point about empowering racists however.

@GR: The more I see that, the more I am convinced Americans have no idea of what a despot is.
 

prizrak

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It matters a lot, because when he says it, as the president of the United States of America, it legitimizes and normalizes racism among people who is capable to act on it, and it strengthens racial prejudice among others. This in turn makes life harder for minorities.
That is a fair point that I had not considered.
 

Blind_Io

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Attitudes matter, because human beings don't handle cognitive dissonance well - they want their actions and attitudes to be congruent otherwise we experience increased stress and anxiety. This is what I've been saying for some time and why Trump's decisions and attitudes can't be separated from one another. Even unconscious bias matters - no, it especially matters - because it can affect our choices without us realizing it. The fact that Trump honestly believes he's not a racist is the most troubling part of this.

EDIT: for those wanting a citation regarding Trump's relationship with Epstein
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-jeffrey-epstein-acosta-pedophile-palm-beach-sex-trafficking-plea-deal-2008-a8997761.html

So Trump admits to knowing Epstein, but says he "was not a fan" and only knew him as much as anyone else in palm beach.

Here's Trump partying with Epstein:

And this from Trump in 2002:
I’ve known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it – Jeffrey enjoys his social life.
So more bullshit from Trump.
 
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Blind_Io

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Well, that didn't take long. One of Trump's rallies eruped into chants of "Send her back!" today.

But totally Not Racist™, right guys? ...right?
 

mpicco

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Again you are misrepresenting what I’m saying... I’m going to ask you point blank yet again, what does it matter what he believes if he doesn’t act on it?
Do you understand someone first needs to believe something to afterwards act on it?
Can you go out and beat a latino to death just because he's a latino, if you don't believe doing so is the right thing to do?
Who is more likely to be influenced by racism in his actions, someone who has been outspokenly racist or someone who hasn't said anything of the sort?

Perhaps he hasn't done anything racist lately (again ignoring a vast history of questionable behaviour) but his words are cause for worry. Not admitting that is being an accomplice today for the things he might do tomorrow. It's called putting your foot down before shit gets out of hand.

That is a fair point that I had not considered.
Funny you should say that, because I told you the exact same thing half a dozen posts ago:

You are very short sighted if you think what someone in power says doesn't filter down and becomes actions by others, namely his followers.
Fuck me right?


In other news, Trump's excellent economic policies keep bearing fruit:

IKEA moves production to Europe to cut costs, because of tariffs
 

prizrak

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@maicon I think this is going in circles, like I said plenty of times I don’t think that being racist (as in actually believing racist things) is necessarily going to cause racist behavior (discrimination or violence towards whatever group one dislikes).

However I concede yours and marcos’s point as well.

P.S. Can I just point out that while everyone is concentrating on the tweets Trump has quietly made it nearly impossible to seek asylum?
 
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Blind_Io

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That sounds like something he did that's motivated by the racism expressed in his speech.

Trump's recent "love it or leave it" rhetoric is not only inline with hate groups like the KKK, he's trying to equate his vision of America with the America "brand". What he is saying is that his version of America is the only correct or valid version, either get on board or you don't belong. That's a very dangerous direction to head; there's no room for compromise and no room for dissent. Trump's brand of nationalism is not new, it's been invoked by nearly every despot and dictator to ever be in power. Fortunately we have a system of checks and balances, but that system is being compromised bit by bit. Congress has ceded much of their responsibility to the Executive Branch for the sake of expediency, and Trump has taken full advantage of that; the GOP is in the midst of a generation-long effort to pack the courts from the local level all the way to the Supreme Court -- and now we have Trump in office. Trump is not hijacking the GOP, he is the GOP; he's the natural conclusion of 20 years of GOP tactics to maintain control and power despite the majority of the population not agreeing with them. They have not been putting the good of the nation first or tried to represent the people; they seek power for the sake of power, it's no wonder that they ended up with the narcissistic schoolyard bully as their leader.
 
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prizrak

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That sounds like something he did that's motivated by the racism expressed in his speech.
You kind of missing the point here, whatever the motivation or his views, he quite expertly manipulated the media to concentrate on what is essentially an internet flamewar rather than actual things he is doing. Which is the same thing he has been doing for the past 3 years and somehow MSM still hasn't figured it out
 

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What if I told you it was possible for me to be pissed at him for more than one thing at a time? Just on the last page I addressed this already when calling out his supporters for playing into this exact tactic. Trump's approach to scandal is to create a bigger scandal to get out of the last one - it's not that the MSM is too dumb to figure it out, it's that his supporters love him because of it. They are sitting back marveling in how good of a racist, xenophobic, despot he is, rather than be concerned about the fact there's a racist, xenophobic despot in the White House.

The saddest and most frightening part of this is realizing that his supporters don't love him in spite of his racism, his schoolyard bully tactics, name calling, and authoritarian narcissism - they love him because of it. But anything to "trigger the liburls"; as I've said before, his base is so cultish in their devotion to "pwning libs" that they would let Trump shit in their mouths if a liberal might have to smell their breath.
 

mpicco

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I continuously post rebukes and news pointing towards his policies failing - these points are never touched on or commented and mostly by the Trump supporters around here. It seems like these bits of the posts are conveniently ignored most of the time. I wonder who is really focusing on the internet flamewars.

they love him because of it. But anything to "trigger the liburls"
Too damn right. Three word slogans and chants, mainly.
 

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His supporters use the same tactics, it's a predictable progression and I've posted it before. You can't hold them or Trump accountable because they simply deny that it ever happened, if the fact that the sun is shining contradicted what they want to talk about, they will close their eyes and say it's dark - no amount of taking them outside and pointing at the giant ball of nuclear fusion in the sky will change their minds. This is not a debate about evidence, to have a debate you have to agree on some fundamental constants of reality - the Orwellian nature of Trump is mind-blowing. You can show video of Trump meeting with someone he said he never met, lauding someone he said he never liked, and somehow his base will find a way to say that the video is wrong/doctored/taken out of context or that Trump didn't actually mean that thing that he said so many times because what he was thinking was totally different than that. But holy shit, if you don't have a dozen citations from Trump-friendly news sources if you ever try to challenge the narrative - because you will be in for a hell of a time.

Just look at this thread to see the pattern. Someone could post 5 sources saying the same thing, they all get dismissed because "the media is out to get him" (I guess facts are the enemy of the narrative), or they don't meet some arbitrary and amorphous standard that no one is willing to explain, or you get a list of a dozen "whatabouts" that have nothing to do with what Trump just did - like bringing up something Bill Clinton did 20 years ago. Anything to throw chaff at the issue so they don't have to actually defend his indefensible actions.
 
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