The Trump Presidency - how I stopped worrying and learned to love the Hair

SirEdward

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Are we arguing over whether or not Trump is an ethical human being? I think we all know the answer to that...
Yet you are extremely vague about that. It would be interesting to know what you think about this kind of person and this kind of behaviour, and if that sits well with what you believe in.

Until know, what passes to me is you are somewhat ashamed of it, or of the fact that you agree with it.

That's not the question though.
No, as it was not the questions you are trying to shift the conversation onto.

My question is what -you- think of the kind of people as Trump has shown to be. I am more interested in what values guide you and what you consider acceptable, dangerous, good or not good for you and for the USA. And what of the two is your highest priority.

Because, in the end, there are people with whom you can have a dialogue about how the world should work, and find agreement, and people with whom dialogue is fundamentally impossible because a set of shared ideas is not even present. Then the point is to build one.

My question is focused on those things, I really do not care a bit about Democrats in 2020. After all, in the US politics I am interested about macromovements, historical shifts and foreign effects rather than micropoltics and internal fights.

I want to know if people are ok with the likes of Trump or not, as this will give me a bit more of insight about what will happen in 2020.
 

Blind_Io

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AS little as it can help, without knowing the person well enough and without the necessary training, yes, why not. It would be very interesting.
"Sociopath" is no longer a term we use as clinicians, the disorder was redefined years ago and is now called Antisocial Personality Disorder. Personality disorders tend to be stable (meaning unchanging) lifetime patterns that are resistant to treatment; this is why most insurance companies will not pay for treatment if the primary diagnosis is a personality disorder (what we used to call an Axis II diagnosis). There is significant overlap between Antisocial Personality Disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

To meet the criteria for ASPD, one must also meet the criteria for Conduct Disorder prior to age 18 - typically, this also means a diagnosis of ADHD in childhood due to the impulsivity, but not always.

Here are the DSM-5 criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder:

A. Disregard for and violation of others rights since age 15, as indicated by one of the seven sub features:
  1. Failure to obey laws and norms by engaging in behavior which results in criminal arrest, or would warrant criminal arrest
  2. Lying, deception, and manipulation, for profit or self-amusement,
  3. Impulsive behavior
  4. Irritability and aggression, manifested as frequently assaults others, or engages in fighting
  5. Blatantly disregards safety of self and others,
  6. A pattern of irresponsibility and
  7. Lack of remorse for actions (American Psychiatric Association, 2013)
The other diagnostic Criterion are:
B. The person is at least age 18,

C. Conduct disorder was present by history before age 15

D. and the antisocial behavior does not occur in the context of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder (American Psychiatric Association, 2013)


By comparison, here is Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

The definition of NPD states that it comprises of a persistent manner of grandiosity, a continuous desire for admiration, along with a lack of empathy. It starts by early adulthood and occurs in a range of situations, as signified by the existence of any 5 of the next 9 standards (American Psychiatric Association, 2013):
  • A grandiose logic of self-importance
  • A fixation with fantasies of infinite success, control, brilliance, beauty, or idyllic love
  • A credence that he or she is extraordinary and exceptional and can only be understood by, or should connect with, other extraordinary or important people or institutions
  • A desire for unwarranted admiration
  • A sense of entitlement
  • Interpersonally oppressive behavior
  • No form of empathy
  • Resentment of others or a conviction that others are resentful of him or her
  • A display of egotistical and conceited behaviors or attitudes
Another model, characterizes NPD as having fair or superior impairment in personality functioning, apparent by characteristic troubles in at least 2 of the following 4 areas (American Psychiatric Association, 2013):
  1. Individuality
  2. Self-direction
  3. Empathy
  4. Closeness
No actual physical characteristics are seen with NPD, but patients may have concurrent substance abuse, which may be seen in the clinical examination.

We can, and do, quantify sociopathy, even if we no longer use the term "sociopath"
 

LeVeL

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Wrong and wrong. Mueller just said that the campaign sought Russian involvement, and Trump even admitted knowing about the trump tower meeting before it happened. If I remember correctly, the reason for not charging them was they were ignorant of the law, which is lame.

Mueller just testified he could not charge, or even recommend charges because of the OLC ruling. The report has plenty of attempts to obstruct(which is all that is needed) and he can be charged after he leaves office. That is just what we know from what has been revealed.

One more thing. Because Trump is president, the AG can not charge him either for the same reason. It is now up to Congress, and this is all part of the process.
Uhh Mueller clarified that his not finding Trump guilty of collusion was NOT because of the OLC rule but because the investigation could not reach a conclusion.


Please state the answer for the record.
I don't think he's an ethical human being. Hell, he's cheated on his wives multiple times. I've also said many times that he is a loudmouth who should never tweet anything, ever. Furthermore, see below.


My question is what -you- think of the kind of people as Trump has shown to be. I am more interested in what values guide you and what you consider acceptable, dangerous, good or not good for you and for the USA. And what of the two is your highest priority.
Great question! As I mentioned above, Trump's personal ethics are questionable at best - I don't think he's a particularly good person. That said, I find the political left to be deeply troubling - open borders are unethical, socialism is unethical and fundamentally unfair, gun control is unethical, and so on. Traditionally I haven't found all of the right's positions ethical either, with the best example being marriage equality. However, despite Trump being unethical on a personal level, his politics largely align with mine (not 100% but close) - he's left gay marriage and abortions well alone, he supports capitalism, he wants border control, etc - all things I agree with. I don't much care about his personal life and questionable ethics there because there's little, if any, impact on his policy-making.
 

gaasc

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Good, just checking. and now you have it written so anyone can see it and find for easy quoting ;)
 

LeVeL

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@LeVeL, I never mentioned the OLC in relation to collusion, it had to do with obstruction.
My bad, I meant to write obstruction. Take a look at the link I posted earlier where there's footage of Mueller addressing this.
 

SirEdward

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@Blind_Io

With Trump, it is possible to positively associate him with some of them, while almost all of the others remain real possibilities.

I'd say there is definitely something going on with him that resembles those disorders quite a lot; what it is, and whether it derives from genetics or from life events, remains unsure.

@LeVeL

I don't much care about his [...] questionable ethics there because there's little, if any, impact on his policy-making.
I cannot avoit to openly disagree with this statement.
 

Blind_Io

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In my experience, origin isn't relevant. I can spend months or years working with a client to figure out where a problem comes from, but I have yet to discover a problem that disappears just because we know the origin. The fact is that Trump certainly fits the criteria for NPD, and there is a very strong case for ASPD - whether that's his upbringing or genetics has no effect on the fact that it's a problem today.
 

Blind_Io

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I googled Tim Pool, looks like the guy is entirely self-appointed. Every source I can find is pretty much copy-paste from the one before. As far as I can tell, he has no credentials that I can find anywhere.
His LinkedIn profile states under education
this is empty on purpose, I have no institutional education
So why should I, or anyone care about what some YouTuber says or thinks about Muller's testimony? He has no experience in politics, no education after high school (or possibly no high school diploma), and exists only to be inflammatory enough to get views on YouTube. He hasn't worked for any media service since 2016 and hasn't managed to stay at any job more than 2 years. His work experience is pretty much copy-pasted from one job to the next - so he wasn't moving from one to the other for promotions or new opportunities. The longest he's done anything is run his YouTube channel and try to brand himself.

In short - zero credibility.
 

prizrak

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Your denial is just.. sad now. Just sad.
If you are talking to me, I have only one question, did you watch the actual video or did you read the title and form a completely uninformed opinion?
I googled Tim Pool, looks like the guy is entirely self-appointed. Every source I can find is pretty much copy-paste from the one before. As far as I can tell, he has no credentials that I can find anywhere.
In short - zero credibility.
Legitimate question, have you actually watched the video in it's entirety? (Or hell even the first half) Or did you straight up decide that the source is no good regardless of the content?
 

prizrak

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(this is separate from my main point so I'll make it a different post)
No education after high school (or possibly no high school diploma),
This kind of attitude is a big pet peeve of mine, I have a degree in business administration, yet I have been working in IT for the past 14 years, with more than a few people with no formal college degree at all.

Also despite 0 formal education in being a mechanic the only things I haven't (and wouldn't be comfortable with) done on cars is tranny rebuilds, major wiring and body work (well I've prepped cars before but never actually did painting/bondo).

Formal education is irrelevant, these days you can learn anything and everything without ever stepping a foot into a traditional classroom (including legitimate courses from MIT) and not have any piece of paper to show for it.
 

avanti

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US government death penalty move draws sharp criticism

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-49122869
Who is the US government planning to execute?

They are Daniel Lewis Lee, a white supremacist who was convicted in Arkansas of murdering a family of three; Lezmond Mitchell, a Native American who was convicted in Arizona of murdering a grandmother and her granddaughter; Wesley Ira Purkey, who raped and murdered a teenage girl; Alfred Bourgeois, who sexually molested and killed his young daughter; and Dustin Lee Honken, who shot five people dead.


Excellent news(y)
 

Dr_Grip

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I do not believe that killing people, no matter how bad they are, ever is good news.
 

prizrak

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Death penalty is too easy for all those horrible people mentioned, I’d rather they rot in prison for the rest of their lives
 

Blind_Io

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(this is separate from my main point so I'll make it a different post)

This kind of attitude is a big pet peeve of mine, I have a degree in business administration, yet I have been working in IT for the past 14 years, with more than a few people with no formal college degree at all.

Also despite 0 formal education in being a mechanic the only things I haven't (and wouldn't be comfortable with) done on cars is tranny rebuilds, major wiring and body work (well I've prepped cars before but never actually did painting/bondo).

Formal education is irrelevant, these days you can learn anything and everything without ever stepping a foot into a traditional classroom (including legitimate courses from MIT) and not have any piece of paper to show for it.
Being a home mechanic is a technical skill, politics isn't. You can buy an old car and teach yourself how to repair it, you can't buy a politician and learn politi-- nevermind.
 

avanti

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I do not believe that killing people, no matter how bad they are, ever is good news.
I do, kill them, lets forget about them and move on.

How much do you think Tex Watson and Charles Manson has cost the tax payers over the last (almost) 50 years? Millions! Tex Watson has fathered 4 kids while in prison, doesn't seem like he is rotting to me...
 
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