US ex-gang boss denied clemency

fluffnik

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Olds442 said:
fluffnik said:
My point is that the state should realise that prolonged incarceration under constant threat of death, which is torture, is an inevitable consequence of the system.
The state realizes that if the criminal has been found guilty then they should carry out the sentence. It is up to the crminal to prolong the time on death row if he chooses to do so.
Not the state's fault.
The state devises and runs the system, it is responsible for its faults.

Olds442 said:
I wish he didn't sit there for 20 years. It would have been easier to take him out back and put a bullet behind his ear.
That's the Tookie way...

Olds442 said:
fluffnik said:
Tookie was defenseless when by deliberate, pre-meditated action he was killed. That is murder.

Both Tookie and California killed someone just in case they proved to be a threat in the future, neither had that right.
Explain to me how in the world the 7-11 employee laying face down on the ground is a threat to a hulking man with a shotgun.
Explain to me how an asian family (man, woman, daughter) shaking in fear is a threat to a hulking man with a shotgun.
Explain to me how in the world a hulking man strapped to a gurney in a locked room behind multiple layers of the highest security is a threat to the State of California.

What Tookie did is disgusting, what the State of California did is exactly the same.
 

gtrietsc

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You can keep saying that, but not isn't going to make you more right.
 

hokiethang

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I promised I wouldn't get involved in this discussion...

BUT I have to make this these statements.

I live in the US. I would much rather have my tax money spent on fighting terrorism (which if you want to fight about, there's plenty of other threads) than to give some person who killed defenseless people, 3 meals a day, shelter, medical treatment and entertainment all for free, for the rest of their lives. Say the average inmate committed a crime at 25, and dies when they are 75. That's almost 1 million USD to hold them for 50 years and that's per inmate, 1 million that would be better spent elsewhere. That 1 million doesn't even include healthcare, which they would also get for free.

Criminals shouldn't be given a million dollars for free, ESPECIALLY the violent ones. The death penalty is slower than it should be, I mean 20 years of appeals is just stupid, but it comes out cheaper than supporting them into their old age. Medical costs also rise as people get older, therefore holding them 50 - 60 years will only get more expensive as time goes on.

So drop the "oh california committed murder" BS. Keep repeating it if you want, but as was said before me, repeating it doesn't make it right. Because whether they did or not, they were acting in the best interests of their treasury, the taxpayer AND society at large. I know the fact that Americans would rather solve problems instead of hiding them is foreign to most people outside this country.

I have no sympathy for someone who got mad and killed some people. Those people should not be allowed to live anymore, especially while using my money for their continued existence. It's sad it takes so long for the justice system to bring these killers to justice, and what's even sadder is people like you who think that my best interests (as an American Taxpayer) are best served by keeping these people in a box somewhere, until they die, while giving them food, shelter and medical care which they have not earned. They have done nothing to contribute to society, AT ALL, and should not be allowed to leech off those of us who send a significant portion of our paycheck to the government each month.

Yeah, and as you say, he was defenseless. so what, if he were given the chance, he likely would have done whatever he could have to escape, including killing again. I don't see how you can think that since he was locked inside a prison he wasn't a threat. Criminals are threats to themselves, society, other criminals and the people that work in the prison.
 

cvrefugee

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fluffnik said:
Explain to me how in the world a hulking man strapped to a gurney in a locked room behind multiple layers of the highest security is a threat to the State of California.

What Tookie did is disgusting, what the State of California did is exactly the same.
Can't you get the concept of murder inside your head? Murder is the UNLAWFUL taking of one's life! Execution mandated BY LAW is not murder. Legally the State of California had the lawful right to kill Tookie. Tookie did NOT have the legal right to take away the lives of his victims.

Seriously, what is wrong with you? I obviously can tell you think any form of killing is murder, so what do you eat? Are you a vegan? Do you eat meat? Do you eat plants, grains, animals? Because somebody "murdered" them so you can eat. Going by your logic the fact that you're consuming any food at all (any living creature, grain or beast) makes you a murderer, since you agree that they had to be killed.
 

gtrietsc

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Y'know, reading hokie's comments, and reflecting on this thread, I have the perfect compromise.

Let's make "The Running Man" a reality.

Give criminals a chance to win their freedom, meanwhile satisfying the public's bloodthirst AND not killing a "defenseless" person!

If Arnold could win, so could others! ;)
 

justin syder

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gtrietsc said:
Y'know, reading hokie's comments, and reflecting on this thread, I have the perfect compromise.

Let's make "The Running Man" a reality.

Give criminals a chance to win their freedom, meanwhile satisfying the public's bloodthirst AND not killing a "defenseless" person!

If Arnold could win, so could others! ;)
:lol: :lol:
 

justin syder

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zenkidori said:
justin syder said:
Its the gun companies fault for making the guns and the victims fault for making Mr. Tookie angry. :lol:
dude I know you're joking but don't bring that ish up, I love my guns.

Do you own a gun? I would LOVE to go to a shooting range and blast away with a Gold Desert Eagle .50!!



kick-ass!!
 

zenkidori

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justin syder said:
zenkidori said:
justin syder said:
Its the gun companies fault for making the guns and the victims fault for making Mr. Tookie angry. :lol:
dude I know you're joking but don't bring that ish up, I love my guns.
Do you own a gun? I would LOVE to go to a shooting range and blast away with a Gold Desert Eagle .50!!
kick-ass!!
I own many guns, and now that I am 21 I am going to apply for a concealed-carry permit. I love hunting and fishing and shooting, very outdoors type. My family background consists of farmers and ranchers mostly, so there's a long history there. The most shooting I've done lately is with a camera tho, because I havn't drawn for tags and you can'y carry a firearm into most parks.
 

fluffnik

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hokiethang said:
So drop the "oh california committed murder" BS. Keep repeating it if you want, but as was said before me, repeating it doesn't make it right. Because whether they did or not, they were acting in the best interests of their treasury, the taxpayer AND society at large. I know the fact that Americans would rather solve problems instead of hiding them is foreign to most people outside this country.
I have no doubt that it is cheaper, more convenient and even a little safer to kill Tookie.

...but that shouldn't be what civilisation is all about.
 

fluffnik

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cvg said:
fluffnik said:
What Tookie did is disgusting, what the State of California did is exactly the same.
Can't you get the concept of murder inside your head? Murder is the UNLAWFUL taking of one's life! Execution mandated BY LAW is not murder. Legally the State of California had the lawful right to kill Tookie. Tookie did NOT have the legal right to take away the lives of his victims.
Why is California allowed to give itself the right to kill?

By what moral authority?

fluffnik said:
Seriously, what is wrong with you? I obviously can tell you think any form of killing is murder, so what do you eat? Are you a vegan? Do you eat meat? Do you eat plants, grains, animals? Because somebody "murdered" them so you can eat. Going by your logic the fact that you're consuming any food at all (any living creature, grain or beast) makes you a murderer, since you agree that they had to be killed.
I don't think meat is murder, nor do I think that my steak exists in a moral vacuum - it will be local and organic, not Brazilian and frozen - and I appreciate the symbiotic relationship that has evolved between us and our food species.

I have no problem with killing in self defence or to protect the innocent from an assailant. I have no great problem with killing an escaping prisoner if they are reasonably certain to present a danger to society.

I do have a problem with killing someone who has been securely imprisoned just because it is cheap and convenient.
 

fluffnik

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zenkidori said:
fluffnik said:
I have no doubt that it is cheaper, more convenient and even a little safer to kill Tookie.
Actually it's more expensive and obviously a big pain in the ass.
So California is spending extra to do the morally indefencible?

That's worse.
 

justin syder

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zenkidori said:
justin syder said:
zenkidori said:
justin syder said:
Its the gun companies fault for making the guns and the victims fault for making Mr. Tookie angry. :lol:
dude I know you're joking but don't bring that ish up, I love my guns.
Do you own a gun? I would LOVE to go to a shooting range and blast away with a Gold Desert Eagle .50!!
kick-ass!!
I own many guns, and now that I am 21 I am going to apply for a concealed-carry permit. I love hunting and fishing and shooting, very outdoors type. My family background consists of farmers and ranchers mostly, so there's a long history there. The most shooting I've done lately is with a camera tho, because I havn't drawn for tags and you can'y carry a firearm into most parks.
Where do you live? In NYC, I found out that I can only have a gun in my car or in my house. If it is in my car it has to be locked up, how useful. :roll:

I dont know if there are any concealed-carry permit in NYC, i doubt it though.
 

Manic Moran

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I don't know where he lives, but it's not likely to be in my part of California. The city-dwellers don't like people to be armed legally. Illegally is so much more preferable...

For all your CCW needs, go to http://www.packing.org
For NYC the question is 'Yes', but like any 'may issue' metropolis, it very much depends on who you know.

NTM
 

Firecat

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I've always been meaning to buy a handgun. One thing which sticks out in my head is this scene in "Bowling for Columbine" where Michael Moore is interviewing this woman (I think she was with some militia type organization)...anyway, she said something like "if someone breaks into your house, why do people call the cops? Because they have guns"...so having your own gun is kinda like eliminating the middle-man.
 

zenkidori

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I live in Colorado. AFAIK I can have as many guns as I want provided they are legal, and a concealed carry permit is legal to obtain here, but you must abide by the concealment laws of any state you travel into, so I can't use my permit in say, NYC. Since the expiration of the brady bill I also plan on getting a full auto rifle sometime.
California sucks if you like guns or cars, very restrictive. AFAIK you can't even have a .50 caliber rifle in Cali, even if it's an Elk gun.
 

Firecat

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I live in Florida, the gun laws over here aren't too restrictive. People were up in arms over that "deadly force" law that was passed, in fact...I think some group started handing pamphlets to tourists at the airport telling them to beware of locals or they will be shot (something like that)
 

justin syder

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Basically, when in your own home and you are being attacked who will save you;

*the cops 5-7 mins away or

*your .45 :thumbsup:


I am definitely going to own a gun someday. I love the 9 shot .50. So powerful but on the downside I heard that it is heavy and with 9 bullets you better be a good shot.
 

Jay

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Firecat said:
I've always been meaning to buy a handgun. One thing which sticks out in my head is this scene in "Bowling for Columbine" where Michael Moore is interviewing this woman (I think she was with some militia type organization)...anyway, she said something like "if someone breaks into your house, why do people call the cops? Because they have guns"...so having your own gun is kinda like eliminating the middle-man.
:lol: I like your reasoning, sir!
 
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