Volkswagen is in trouble with just about everybody on the f'ing planet

Spectre

The Deported
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
36,870
Location
Dallas, Texas
Car(s)
00 4Runner | 02 919 | 87 XJ6 | 86 CB700SC
I don't think Lamborghini should go, like it or not, that brand makes money.
I've heard otherwise. Another consideration - does the unique engineering Lambo requires really translate into trickle-down engineering benefits for the rest of the lines? Does it generate enough interest to be worth the expenditure? Or is it really just a prestige toy as it mostly was for Chrysler or PAG was for Ford?
 

rickhamilton620

has a fetish for terrible cars
Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Messages
16,750
Location
Yoe, PA
Car(s)
2012 Kia Forte EX
To play devil's advocate - MQB is that modular platform that Spectre believes they should work on. It's so flexible that it can underpin a full size CUV with a V6 (albeit with a odd looking engine bay due to the deep recess that the low, mounted like a compact car, engine sits in) down to a compact 2 door sports coupe. Some say that they over engineered the platform from a cost perspective (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?8268705-MQB-is-over-engineered-for-the-vehicles-it-underpins/), but if they put higher margin vehicles on it (which they are with Atlas/Teramont) perhaps they can recoup the costs better.

Is the inherent flexibility (and over engineering) of MQB enough to remain competitive since, even though it's a platform in a very loose sense of the term, the bones date back to 2012?

It is admittedly short sighted of them to not have integrated electrification when developing MQB. MEB is going to be their purpose built EV platform but having to create a new platform means that, as we all know, they're nowhere near competitive in the Hybrid and/or EV race with a proper purpose built vehicle.
 
Last edited:

Spectre

The Deported
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
36,870
Location
Dallas, Texas
Car(s)
00 4Runner | 02 919 | 87 XJ6 | 86 CB700SC
To play devil's advocate - MQB is that modular platform that Spectre believes they should work on. It's so flexible that it can underpin a full size CUV with a V6 (albeit with a odd looking engine bay due to the deep recess that the low, mounted like a compact car, engine sits in) down to a compact 2 door sports coupe. Some say that they over engineered the platform from a cost perspective (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?8268705-MQB-is-over-engineered-for-the-vehicles-it-underpins/), but if they put higher margin vehicles on it (which they are with Atlas/Teramont) perhaps they can recoup the costs better.
Except it really isn't - and right here is the big problem:

"All MQB cars will share the same front axle, pedal box and engine positioning, despite varying wheelbase, track and external dimensions."

In other words, they've locked themselves into a fixed front 'drive module' and for all intents and purposes everything else from around the A pillar back is just spacers and a rear end. Basically, they've built this.



FM and F-Alpha (to continue to use my prior examples) are far, far more flexible than MQB and have no such hard 'engine section' restrictions. Or relative control position restrictions - remember that VW graphic you yourself posted where you were pointing out where the steering wheel and controls were ridiculously off centerline? Well, expect to see more of that with MQB cars. You'll get a 7 passenger CUV with the control spacing of a Jetta - brilliant! (By the way, I predict that Atlas/Teramont will be a net market flop - everywhere in the US except perhaps Pennsylvania.)

Is the inherent flexibility (and over engineering) of MQB enough to remain competitive since, even though it's a platform in a very loose sense of the term, the bones date back to 2012?
No, because it's not that competitive.

It is admittedly short sighted of them to not have integrated electrification when developing MQB. MEB is going to be their purpose built EV platform but having to create a new platform means that, as we all know, they're nowhere near competitive in the Hybrid and/or EV race with a proper purpose built vehicle.
Which goes back to their main problem as noted in this thread - they were so arrogant that they thought nobody would ever call them to account on their lying and cheating, that their cynically named 'clean diesel' powertrains would haul them through any difficulty. They don't even seem to have considered that the market would possibly ever turn away from their diesels - something that *could* have happened whether they got caught or not, automotive tastes being what they are. Their BEV and hybrid developments for mainstream vehicles seem to have been just token "get the governments off our ass" efforts.
 
Last edited:

argatoga

Can't Start His Wank
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Messages
18,041
Location
Seattle
Car(s)
'13 Moto Guzzi V7, '08 Pontiac Solstice GXP
I don't think they need to develop a new flagship platform. The last time they tried that, we got the Phaeton Phlop.

What they need to do is design a new "everything" mainstream chassis to leverage development dollars as far as they can, much like how most of Infiniti's car, CUV and SUV lineup is based off the FM chassis that was developed for the Z33, or how most of Nissan's trucks/SUVs as well as most of Infiniti's big SUVs are built off various sizes of the F-Alpha platform. Unfortunately, I am dubious of VW's ability to start from a clean sheet of paper and seriously do the questioning of even basic corporate precepts that sort of thing takes in the modern era.

And I agree, VW needs to divest themselves of a lot of their recent brand acquisitions to refocus on their core business. As GM proved, you can only play the "we're reskinning and repurposing the same regurgitated crap/mediocre at best platform endlessly" game for so long before people start figuring out what you're doing and leave. Unless they contribute to core requirements, Lambo, Ducati, Bentley - they all need to go. While they're at it, someone take the Piech hallucination of "our top car should wear an actual VW badge" out and shoot it.
I used the wrong term, but that's it exactly.

- - - Updated - - -

To play devil's advocate - MQB is that modular platform that Spectre believes they should work on. It's so flexible that it can underpin a full size CUV with a V6 (albeit with a odd looking engine bay due to the deep recess that the low, mounted like a compact car, engine sits in) down to a compact 2 door sports coupe. Some say that they over engineered the platform from a cost perspective (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?8268705-MQB-is-over-engineered-for-the-vehicles-it-underpins/), but if they put higher margin vehicles on it (which they are with Atlas/Teramont) perhaps they can recoup the costs better.

Is the inherent flexibility (and over engineering) of MQB enough to remain competitive since, even though it's a platform in a very loose sense of the term, the bones date back to 2012?

It is admittedly short sighted of them to not have integrated electrification when developing MQB. MEB is going to be their purpose built EV platform but having to create a new platform means that, as we all know, they're nowhere near competitive in the Hybrid and/or EV race with a proper purpose built vehicle.
Note I mentioned Tesla and the Chevy Volt. Electric cars are different beasts than ICE powered vehicles. VW is limited to where they can shove the batteries. They will also be behind in manufacturing processes, you can't just go from riveting bolts to glueing aluminum for instance.

VW does already have a rather large market base, and there are other places they can innovate outside the chassis. However they will fall behind in the new era of electric cars which is coming.
 

CD82

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
1,521
Location
German in Switzerland
Car(s)
Audi A3 2.0 TDI
So now I've received a letter from Audi, asking me turn my car in to have it fixed.

The letter states that performance and characteristics of the car will be similar (to what they previously were) when tested with a certain benchmark.

Two things I don't like about this:

1) The use of the word "similar" instead of "identical"
2) Limiting the "will be similar" statement to some fantasy industry benchmark situation. No word about real world usage.
 

Spectre

The Deported
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
36,870
Location
Dallas, Texas
Car(s)
00 4Runner | 02 919 | 87 XJ6 | 86 CB700SC
So now I've received a letter from Audi, asking me turn my car in to have it fixed.

The letter states that performance and characteristics of the car will be similar (to what they previously were) when tested with a certain benchmark.

Two things I don't like about this:

1) The use of the word "similar" instead of "identical"
2) Limiting the "will be similar" statement to some fantasy industry benchmark situation. No word about real world usage.
That's why VW is recalling so many of the affected cars here that could in theory be brought into emissions compliance by a software update. While we don't quite have so many consumer protections against false advertising and dishonest specifications/consumer fraud as, say, the British have in some product market segments, the ones we do possess have great big nasty teeth. As VW has just found out the hard way, of course.

If you sell me a car and promise that under set conditions it can do 0-60 in 2 seconds and it doesn't under the same conditions, I have a case for consumer fraud. Consumer fraud, even the non-criminal kind, carries large per-count fines and under certain circumstances (such as systemic premeditated fraud - which we now have proof of in VW's case) the person bringing the suit is entitled to triple monetary damages. In this case, that would be three times the amount paid for the car - per car.

If you have to recall a car due to emissions compliance or other violation of the laws and the car does not perform to the same minimum specs afterwards (which is going to be impossible for a lot of these VWs), we're right back to consumer fraud. You don't get to use some synthetic benchmark here - if you test the car before and after only to find the car performs to advertised spec before and it doesn't after, game over. They either have to make it right or pay up.

Kinda tells you something about what they're getting away with over there and what they can't get away with over here, doesn't it?
 

CD82

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
1,521
Location
German in Switzerland
Car(s)
Audi A3 2.0 TDI
I think VW has demonstrated exceptionally well how little it cares about its EU customers. As has the EU, because apparently it was well known that something a bit off about all those diesels meeting strict regulations all of the sudden, but nobody wanted to speak up about it.
 

JimCorrigan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
4,105
Location
Pacific Rim
Car(s)
HMCS Velvet Glove; The Last Samurai
California using Volkswagen money for the ecomentalists.

Car and Driver said:
VW Settlement Funds Likely To Make Sacramento a Green City
by Bengt Halvorson


Sacramento is the likely location for Volkswagen?s first EV-friendly Green City initiative, part of a $2 billion settlement the company must make for years of cheating over emissions from its diesel vehicles. California?s $800 million share of the settlement includes a package of investments in zero-emission-vehicle (ZEV) car-sharing services, transit applications, and freight transport projects, to be located in two California cities. And while the projects that are part of the first $200 million round of investment are expected to be detailed later this month, our preliminary investigation points to the state?s capital, Sacramento, as poised to benefit big from a Green City designation. Electrify America, a Volkswagen subsidiary formed late last year to manage the multibillion-dollar payout, recently ran a job listing for a director of its Green City program. The job requires the director to be ?responsible for continuous contact with the mayor of Sacramento and transportation officials regarding Green City operations and development.? A similar online listing for a manager of the Green City?s fleet and operations also referenced Sacramento. Electrify America told Car and Driver that it has a draft plan for the Green City but would not comment on the location.

Smart Traffic Signals, Silicon Valley Ties, and Shuttles for the Homeless

Sacramento?s proposal for Green City status, obtained by Car and Driver under a public-records request, shows how the city might spend its windfall. The first priority would be to build 15 fast chargers for electric vehicles on city property. These would be followed by 15 more within the first six months, including some at community centers located in disadvantaged communities. The next step would be to create a ?robust car-share and ride-hailing system designed around affordable, accessible zero-emission vehicles.? Sacramento would deploy electric vehicles at light rail stations and neighborhood electric-vehicle hubs. There would even be an ?electric boulevard? designed to ?integrate creative public art and amenities with concentrated, educational, and accessible EV charging.? Some of the money might go to the city?s smart traffic programs, which aim to link fiber-optic connected traffic signals and sensors to new vehicle-to-vehicle (V2V) and vehicle-to-infrastructure (V2I) technology. Electrify America would also be encouraged to ?maximize its investment and test autonomous electric vehicles throughout the region.? Another priority for Sacramento?s Green City programs would be a system of dynamic ZEV shuttle routes to expand access for homeless individuals by connecting them to shelter and services. The proposal says that these might utilize autonomous electronic transit vehicles that would follow fixed routes, or even ride-sharing services such as Uber and Lyft. Sacramento also sees the Dieselgate money as way to forge closer links with Silicon Valley. The city is already part of a Smart Cities Collaborative with Google?s urban-tech spinoff Sidewalk Labs and is planning to integrate street-level sensors that will track congestion with mapping data from Waze and Here.

Who Benefits from Plugging In?

A second Green City initiative, which must run in a city of approximately 500,000 people predominantly consisting of disadvantaged communities, would also favor Sacramento or Fresno. Kelly Fong Rivas, spokesperson for Sacramento mayor Darrell Steinberg, told Car and Driver: ?We worked hard to demonstrate why Sacramento would be the best choice, are confident in our bid, and are hopeful we will ultimately be selected as Electrify America?s Green City.? But Steinberg will not be counting his city?s chickens just yet. Sacramento?s bids for an EV car-share grant from the California Air Resources Board?headquartered within the city?and for a federal Department of Transportation Smart City Challenge last year were both unsuccessful. And many of Electrify America?s Green City job listings were recently altered to remove all references to Sacramento.

Jennifer Venema, sustainability program manager for the city of Sacramento, is already putting a brave face on it. In an email to Volkswagen in January she wrote, ?Regardless of the Green City chosen, we look forward to collaborating and hope to support VW?s statewide investments in electrification and smart mobility.? Venema will be crossing her fingers that, for Sacramento, the third try will be a charm.
Regardless of what you may think of intent, I predict another spending fiasco, this one not of VW's actual doing (even if they are helping to foot the bill).
 

CD82

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
1,521
Location
German in Switzerland
Car(s)
Audi A3 2.0 TDI
Apparently my car is now cleaner than ever.

Fuel consumption seems to be pretty normal so far, as is the engine respone, noise level and idle RPM. No idea if Audi actually did anything. Maybe they just stick to their guns and tell everybody they "fixed" it without doing anything.
 

Mitchi

Sierras für alle!
DONOR
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
5,409
Location
Lüneburg
The software adjustments might be so little that you'll probably never experience any change at all, yeah
 

CrzRsn

Hotblack Desiato
DONOR
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
17,437
Location
Motor City, Michigan
Car(s)
13 Ford Mustang GT, 17 Ford Fiesta ST
Doesn't look like SCCA will be able to hold autox's at one of the usual venues this year.

Thousands of defective diesel Volkswagens are currently being stored at the Pontiac Silverdome, much to the displeasure of the city.

As the footage below shows, Volkswagen has filled expansive parking lots with the vehicles it has bought back from customers in the midst of the dieselgate scandal. However, according to the city of Pontiac, the owners of the stadium have violated a number of codes by allowing the vehicles to be stored there.

The Oakland Press reports that in February, the city filed six separate complaints against Triple Investment Group that include violations of the building and safety code, municipal code and zoning ordinances. Additionally, it is alleged that the stadium?s owners have violated a code that stipulates they need a special business license to store vehicles.

Volkswagen started buying back vehicles affected by its emissions-manipulating software late last year and in total, about 475,000 Volkswagen 2.0-liter TDI owners in the United States can sell their vehicles back to the carmaker at pre-scandal prices.
 

CD82

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
1,521
Location
German in Switzerland
Car(s)
Audi A3 2.0 TDI
I wonder if a ECU tuning will disappear if such has been performed?
Apparently the fix does affect ECU tuning. Both the letter that they sent me and the people at the dealership asked if the car had any tuning done.

Doesn't it seem weird that all it takes is a little firmware update that doesn't seem to change anything about the engine apart from making it cleaner? Why not do that in the first place and avoid all this bad press and the recalls?
 

argatoga

Can't Start His Wank
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Messages
18,041
Location
Seattle
Car(s)
'13 Moto Guzzi V7, '08 Pontiac Solstice GXP
Apparently the fix does affect ECU tuning. Both the letter that they sent me and the people at the dealership asked if the car had any tuning done.

Doesn't it seem weird that all it takes is a little firmware update that doesn't seem to change anything about the engine apart from making it cleaner? Why not do that in the first place and avoid all this bad press and the recalls?
The engine tune isn't enough for US emission standards. Europe is more lax when it comes to Diesel. There is also the chance the tune may do harm to the engines.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/03/volkswagen-butchered-diesel-fixed/
Swedish researchers from the country?s preeminent motoring magazine, Teknikens V?rld, conducted back-to-back testing of 10 cars from Skoda, VW, and Audi before and after the fix. The findings, at the very least, indicate Volkswagen Group may have broken its promise to returning the corrected cars in the same state as before. While some of the vehicles became thirstier and made more power, most became significantly less impressive. Engines saw up to a 10-percent decrease in performance with a new torque curve biased toward higher engine speeds.
I'm not sure about EU law, but in the US this would result in more lawsuits.
 
Last edited:

SirEdward

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2008
Messages
1,906
Location
Bologna, Italy
Car(s)
VW Golf MkV
I'm not sure about EU law, but in the US this would result in more lawsuits.
In fact, yes, changing the values of the engine would result in more lawsuits, particularly in a lawsuits-prone country.

My father's car underwent the fixing a few weeks ago. It is basically the same as it was before, although the fuel consumption has risen a bit. In other words, most average users wouldn't notice any differences (which would make any the lawsuit frenzy pretty much preposterous, even if technically correct).

I can't say anything on long-term reliability.
 
Last edited:

93Flareside

Döner Kebab enthusiast
DONOR
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
17,307
Location
42 miles outside of Chicago
Car(s)
‘18 VW Golf GTI, '87 Mercury Colony Park
Volkswagen is in trouble with just about everybody on the f'ing planet

They say that 2015's will be heavily discounted yet when I searched for new 2015's on cars.com, all prices were the usual few grand off MSRP.

Im not paying 25-30k on a 2015 model.
 

rickhamilton620

has a fetish for terrible cars
Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Messages
16,750
Location
Yoe, PA
Car(s)
2012 Kia Forte EX
They say that 2015's will be heavily discounted yet when I searched for new 2015's on cars.com, all prices were the usual few grand off MSRP.

Im not paying 25-30k on a 2015 model.
I doubt those listings have been updated. The 2015's are probably still in the various parking lots that VW has set up throughout the country.

It's going to be a while for those cars to be updated and redistributed back to dealerships.
 
Top