Target Audience: This Forum? (and thoughts about DVR)

[The Chad]

UPDATED INFORMATION (7/7/08): According to Autoblog and the NBC.com site devoted to the US version of Top Gear, the shows will be available for streaming online.


In Wilman's latest blog posting, he mentions us at this forum, and how strict of Top Gear fans we are. We are all passionate both in our loyalty and our criticism of the content. He even mentions how some here ripped on the Top Gear Ground Force special, even though it was done for charity.

It seems, from his writing...

Now although Final Gear live in fear of BBC lawyers cos they always nick the show, I know that NBC would be as chuffed as nuts if they liked the US version, which is sort of an indicator as to how seriously NBC are taking the issue. Mostly networks just aim for the broad audience and forget the hardcore.

He is implying that NBC has us in mind when making this show.

The thing about us here, is that we are mostly technologically forward-thinking. NBC learned with a show like The Office, that the Internet and YouTube clips and the cult following online is what made the show big. The marketing department need to know who they're appealing to.

But my point is, many of us either get our content (when we get it legally) from Hulu or the separate websites of the networks, or from our DVRs. We live in a time-shifting world where we watch television (and advertising) on our own time, for whatever reason.

A recent show in the news for having a huge cult following was CBS' "Jericho", which after a letter-writing campaign came back for a second season. But before the 2nd season aired, it was obvious that CBS didn't "get it..."

Nina Tassler, president of entertainment for CBS, was quoted in saying about the show (reference) in the New York Times...

Because CBS finances its shows based on measures of viewership of regularly scheduled broadcasts, “it’s of primary importance,” Nina Tassler, the president of CBS Entertainment, said in an interview.

“We want them to watch on Wednesday at 8 o’clock,” or whenever CBS schedules the return of the series later this year, Ms. Tassler said. “And we need them to recruit new viewers who are going to watch the broadcast.”

Changing the viewing habits of its most fervent fans could be a difficult task for the network. After “Jericho” received an initially tepid response from television critics last fall, CBS began a concerted effort to promote it to younger audiences who watch online.

Because many people were DVRing the show and watching it online, the ratings, which haven't been updated to count DVR viewers, was terrible, and thus the show was canceled.

I'm unsure as to how the ratings are calculated when watching the BBC version of the show, but Tivo makes their data available in aggregate for networks to buy, and some do, but they don't seem to use that data in determining what show is successful or not.

My biggest fear for this new show is not that the show is bad, but rather the show is incredibly good, but it will be aired at some time where not too many of the people who would be fans would be able to watch. And the big-wigs at NBC would cut it for that reason.

I love that they are thinking of us when designing this show, and it is awesome to see Andy refer to our forums by name in his posts, but this concern of mine makes me seriously think that all the good shows that are on television do not last as long as they should. I would hate to see this one fall by the waste-side as well. Targeting a niche is a great idea, but I wonder if this model of network distribution is good for a show like this.

Leo Laporte, of tech fame, recently talked about on TWiT with the Revision3 boys about how he has some 500,000 uniques per month / show and that those numbers are almost as large as when TechTV was trying to be a big network. However, his audiences are more engaged and the advertising is targeted and entertaining, and b/c of his distribution channel he can really target a particular niche and do extremely well.

Thoughts?

What are your guys' DVR habits?

Would you DVR this show or watch live?

(To the moderators: I'm not attempting to start a flame war about the show, I'm just looking to see some real thoughts from some (who I know have some insight into networks and ratings), and see what the DVR habits are going to be for people watching this show. If I'm in err, please feel free to delete this post.)

[bartboy9891]

I don't watch TV very often, if I do watch TV, it's usually late at night. This means I probably won't catch Gear when it's on live and will end up downloading it to watch whenever I feel like it.

[Prost264]

I doubt we are the target audience since apparently when NBC called Jay Leno about the job they described it as "3 guys messing around doing crazy things with cars."

And since there have been a ton of arguments here about where Top Gear has gone, I seriously doubt they scanned Final Gear and thought it would be a good idea to only take that aspect of Top Gear.

[Viper007Bond]

I'll download it and watch it like I do with literally all of my primetime TV. Besides lacking commercials, the quality is vastly superior to that of my crappy TV and I can watch it when I want.

Although I may watch the very first episode on TV...

[The Chad]

Originally Posted by Prost264

I doubt we are the target audience since apparently when NBC called Jay Leno about the job they described it as "3 guys messing around doing crazy things with cars."

And since there have been a ton of arguments here about where Top Gear has gone, I seriously doubt they scanned Final Gear and thought it would be a good idea to only take that aspect of Top Gear.

Perhaps you are right in that regard, but also consider that the top people for the show may not have been the ones to call him. I think it's debatable but for Wilman to say that NBC would be excited if we liked it makes me think someone, somewhere, cares what the fans think. I dunno

Originally Posted by Viper007Bond

I'll download it and watch it like I do with literally all of my primetime TV. Besides lacking commercials, the quality is vastly superior to that of my crappy TV and I can watch it when I want.

Although I may watch the very first episode on TV...

I believe many people would choose to watch it via this method simply because of the quality considerations. I, however, would be willing to watch it via a site like Hulu.com and subject myself to their advertising (Hulu isn't that invasive) as long as it looked "good enough" and the content was updated regularly.

I believe NBC messed up with the new policy on Hulu for Battlestar Galactica. They were posting it next-day, and people were watching it (and the ads), but then they decided they didn't have enough people watching it live, so they decided to wait a week before putting the episodes up.

However, a lot of people cannot watch the show live for a variety of reasons. They either don't have cable or don't want to pay for stuff they don't watch. They (like me) have odd hours and cannot watch programming when it airs live. Etc... Etc... So instead of drawing people to the live broadcast, they are forcing people to the torrents to get the good quality material without the commercials. Not because they want to pirate, but simply it's the most convenient way. And the money they were making off of advertising is gone.

[argatoga]

I'll download it. Like Viper I download all the shows I watch due to lack a decent tv / cable.

[Viper007Bond]

I'd watch it via Hulu to show my support for the show, but I can't wait a day to watch it.

[argatoga]

Originally Posted by Viper007Bond

I'd watch it via Hulu to show my support for the show, but I can't wait a day to watch it.

I have no problem waiting a day. I usually find other crap to do while I wait.

[Viper007Bond]

Originally Posted by argatoga

I have no problem waiting a day. I usually find other crap to do while I wait.

I can barely wait the hour it takes to download shows.

Plus, I gotta have it quick since I run FinalGear.

[argatoga]

Originally Posted by Viper007Bond

Plus, I gotta have it quick since I run FinalGear.

Of course.

[The Chad]

Originally Posted by Viper007Bond

I'd watch it via Hulu to show my support for the show, but I can't wait a day to watch it.

I think sometime, before we die, we'll be able to watch any show we want legally, in good quality, on demand. The networks will figure this out, they are just so slow in change. They'd rather legislate protections of their outdated business models than actually try to make money with the internet.

[Viper007Bond]

Originally Posted by The Chad

I think sometime, before we die, we'll be able to watch any show we want legally, in good quality, on demand. The networks will figure this out, they are just so slow in change. They'd rather legislate protections of their outdated business models than actually try to make money with the internet.

Yeah, I agree. Change takes time and they gotta figure out the best way to keep making money.

I have no problem sitting through an ad or two, but the delay and the shit quality makes me want to warez.

[Roadster44]

How much do you think networks have to pay cable providers like Comcast to offer their shows with the "On Demand" feature? Just a thought. Also networks need to push cable providers to make DVR boxes more affordable, or replace standard box altogether.

Yes there is the issue of being able to forward through commercials (not everyone does that), but all-in-all it is better to give viewer flexibility rather than use it or loose it approach.

[bafranksbro]

I'll probably watch it live sometimes and the other times, if it's good enough to bother, I'll watch it via the NBC website like I do with the other NBC shows I watch from time to time. The quality on the site isn't the greatest but still your still seeing the show and getting the same entertainment value. I assume it will be in HD though and since we can get an NBC station in HD over the air that makes a good incentive to see it the first time.

[Crazyjeeper]

I will probably try to catch it live, and download it for future re-viewings.

[JCE]

Originally Posted by Viper007Bond

I'll download it and watch it like I do with literally all of my primetime TV. Besides lacking commercials, the quality is vastly superior to that of my crappy TV and I can watch it when I want.

Although I may watch the very first episode on TV...

This is pretty much spot-on of what I do. Lost? I download it--and DVR it sometimes. Stargate Atlantis? I download it. Battlestar Galactica? I download it. TG US? I will most likely DVR or download it (if the rips are super high quality).

My hope is NBC will be smart and offer each series on DVD once the series is completed. I will buy them if they do as will tons of other people. The BBC really needs to work out how to do that--they are literally missing out on millions and millions of pounds. I'd literally pay 300 quid for the entire 10 series boxset.

[The Chad]

Originally Posted by JCE

This is pretty much spot-on of what I do. Lost? I download it--and DVR it sometimes. Stargate Atlantis? I download it. Battlestar Galactica? I download it. TG US? I will most likely DVR or download it (if the rips are super high quality).

My hope is NBC will be smart and offer each series on DVD once the series is completed. I will buy them if they do as will tons of other people. The BBC really needs to work out how to do that--they are literally missing out on millions and millions of pounds. I'd literally pay 300 quid for the entire 10 series boxset.

Granted, I would pay for a BBC Top Gear box set, but there's no way I'd pay almost 600 US dollars for the series 10 set. It'd have to have a load of special features and a used car in it for me to consider paying THAT much.

[upyourego]

NBC should be able to offer box sets without a problem as the music licencing deals in the US and in fact with UK Commercial media are different to those in place for the BBC.

The BBC has a blanket deal across all of its broadcasting network (all national TV channels, national radio stations, local radio stations, regional tv and even online to some extent).

This means the BBC (almost without exception) can play ANY piece of music in any programme without having to go back to the original rights holders and ask permission or paying extra money.

However when it comes to putting together DVDs or even selling downloads (iPlayer comes under the terms of the deal) that blanket deal doesn't apply and so every track played without a problem when it went out on TV would have to be negotiated - on a one by one basis.

This is 1) expensive and 2) sometimes impossible as rights holders are known to refuse - especially more eco friendly musicians who don't like Top Gear.

I spoke to (and sorry I know I've posted this before at some point somewhere) the head of commissioning at 2|entertain (people responsible for all BBC DVDs) and he basically told me they had two options 1) Sell box sets of every series but with most of the music different to what went out on TV or 2) don't sell box sets but instead sell compilations and best bits that don't matter if the music is changed to much.

He felt, well after doing market research he felt, that the Top Gear fans most likely to buy a box set would NOT want any of the music changed, that they like it as is and so it would be better not to sell it at all than sell "an inferior product".

Oh and if they were to sell it it would probably be about £65 per series when it first came out - dropping to about £35 after a year or so (based on other box sets by the BBC).

The only way it would happen is if everyone decided they were happy to have it with a different sound track - Viper - maybe it's worth a thread of its own and a vote? (drag up an old thread?).

[Steve Levin]

You mean ANYONE still watches programs in real time? Oy, the huge manatee!

The entire "we don't get DVR usage" is a crock, btw; virtually all DVR's report their usage in an anonymized fashion that provides significant data to the networks. And since there's a strong correlation between DVR usage and "good demographic" (good relative to what advertisers are interested in), believe me, the networks look at it. Even if you ARE skipping more of the commercials.

Steve

[The Chad]

Originally Posted by upyourego

NBC should be able to offer box sets without a problem as the music licencing deals in the US and in fact with UK Commercial media are different to those in place for the BBC.

The BBC has a blanket deal across all of its broadcasting network (all national TV channels, national radio stations, local radio stations, regional tv and even online to some extent).

This means the BBC (almost without exception) can play ANY piece of music in any programme without having to go back to the original rights holders and ask permission or paying extra money.

However when it comes to putting together DVDs or even selling downloads (iPlayer comes under the terms of the deal) that blanket deal doesn't apply and so every track played without a problem when it went out on TV would have to be negotiated - on a one by one basis.

This is 1) expensive and 2) sometimes impossible as rights holders are known to refuse - especially more eco friendly musicians who don't like Top Gear.

I spoke to (and sorry I know I've posted this before at some point somewhere) the head of commissioning at 2|entertain (people responsible for all BBC DVDs) and he basically told me they had two options 1) Sell box sets of every series but with most of the music different to what went out on TV or 2) don't sell box sets but instead sell compilations and best bits that don't matter if the music is changed to much.

He felt, well after doing market research he felt, that the Top Gear fans most likely to buy a box set would NOT want any of the music changed, that they like it as is and so it would be better not to sell it at all than sell "an inferior product".

Oh and if they were to sell it it would probably be about £65 per series when it first came out - dropping to about £35 after a year or so (based on other box sets by the BBC).

The only way it would happen is if everyone decided they were happy to have it with a different sound track - Viper - maybe it's worth a thread of its own and a vote? (drag up an old thread?).

Very excellent and thought provoking point, especially about the "green" bands that wouldn't support Top Gear no matter how much money was offered for the rights.

Originally Posted by Steve Levin

You mean ANYONE still watches programs in real time? Oy, the huge manatee!

The entire "we don't get DVR usage" is a crock, btw; virtually all DVR's report their usage in an anonymized fashion that provides significant data to the networks. And since there's a strong correlation between DVR usage and "good demographic" (good relative to what advertisers are interested in), believe me, the networks look at it. Even if you ARE skipping more of the commercials.

Steve

I have no doubt they get that information. They'd be stupid if they did not have all the information at their disposal as they can. But unless I'm missing something huge, they don't seem to be applying this new knowledge to change their models, but rather try to force us into the old television viewing models (i.e. the broadcast flag).