[08x02] May 14th, 2006

[watto]

Originally Posted by ClarksonIsFat

I'm done in this thread. It was a superb episode, and I'd like to apologize to the other members for cluttering up this thread with a flamefest.

Well thank fuck. Don't do it again because the regulars are getting really pissed off with n00bs starting stuff like this.

If you want to be a good n00b, don't start a flame war. First impressions last.

[janstett]

Originally Posted by alexisthemovie

i'll take it that you own or have driven one?

I've had a "spirited" ride in one as a passenger when my ex-boss got his new Z06 about 2 months ago. I was expecting a bone-shattering ride but it isn't that bad, we took some rough post-winter pothole-marked pavement and it handled it without shaking out my teeth. Stiff yes, but honestly I think my 944 is less tolerant of bumps.

And it's loud from road noise because (1) runflats suck, and (2) they got rid of sound deadening to keep the car light (3132 lbs).

[teeb]

Originally Posted by ClarksonIsFat

This is how I speak. I wrote my responses in a matter of seconds. Don't be bitter that the highest level of education you'll ever recieve is equivalent to or below that of most janitors. At least I don't have to edit my post 3 times to cover up spelling/grammar errors.

Oh, the irony.

Why is it an unwritten rule that any post concerning correcting spelling or grammar has to contain at least one spelling or grammar mistake itself?

[UMass]

I found this epsiode rather dull. The best parts was the Stig. JC thinks the Jag XK is beautiful???

[janstett]

Originally Posted by TomCat

Most of the time, "You get what you pay for". Unfortunately, the extra 100grand only gets you a Ferrari badge and a leather dash board.

Do they get the Cadillac XLR in Europe? I'm kind of surprised TG and FG haven't tested that yet, what with the XLR-V coming out. The XLR is built on the Corvette platform. So you can get a luxury Corvette with a folding hard-top in the form of the XLR, or a base model Corvette C6, or a track purpose Z06. It all depends on what your priorities are.

Unfortunately the very same argument you use against the Ferrari applies to the XLR.

The XLR costs twice as much as a base Corvette and doesn't offer $50k of improvement -- it uses a more "sophisticated" (but less powerful) 32 valve DOCH Northstar V8, and doesn't even offer a manual (!!!). For a $100k car, people expect improvement especially in refinement, build quality, and interior materials if you're going to charge Mercedes money. And they don't get it, in spades, with the XLR.

[ClarksonIsFat]

Originally Posted by watto

Well thank fuck. Don't do it again because the regulars are getting really pissed off with n00bs starting stuff like this.

If you want to be a good n00b, don't start a flame war. First impressions last.

I'll rescind my statement of "being done in this thread" just to say, you're absolutely correct. I'll try and let the anti-American sentiment that this place is saturated with not bother me anymore. Also, I joined before you, so don't call me a "n00b".

Originally Posted by teeb

Oh, the irony.

Why is it an unwritten rule that any post concerning correcting spelling or grammar has to contain at least one spelling or grammar mistake itself?

Oh, double the irony.

I make the most trivial of all spelling mistakes...that of an I-E mixup, and you're all over me. Yet, you follow "concerning" with a present participle verb. It should read: "concerning the correcting of spelling or grammar..."

[ClarksonIsFat]

Originally Posted by janstett

Unfortunately the very same argument you use against the Ferrari applies to the XLR.

The XLR costs twice as much as a base Corvette and doesn't offer $50k of improvement -- it uses a more "sophisticated" (but less powerful) 32 valve DOCH Northstar V8, and doesn't even offer a manual (!!!). For a $100k car, people expect improvement especially in refinement, build quality, and interior materials if you're going to charge Mercedes money. And they don't get it, in spades, with the XLR.

Absolutely true. The XLR is a step forward for Cadillac and GM...but only a babystep. It is not a viable competitor yet.

[janstett]

Originally Posted by ejaymclane

Also, how exactly am i ignorant? Americans are renowned for caring little about the way their cars handle, they want a sofa on wheels. Just because a handfull come to this forum and know different doesnt mean that the other 295 million dont.

You have to let go of the 1960s musclecar stereotypes. Many American cars truly do suck, but it is not the 1960s with 427 big blocks with 9 inch ride heights running 5000 pound cars with solid axles and leaf springs. #1, American car companies don't make those kinds of cars anymore (or do they -- SUV?). #2, more and more Americans don't like the cars American companies are producing. American cars have become soulless, amorphous, underpowered front-wheel drive wimpmobiles, unexciting examples of cars made for rental fleets. The best selling cars in the US are the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. The best selling "premium" car is the BMW 3 series. So you're going to tell me what Americans do and don't like? That we don't demand quality interiors and good handling? I'm going to tell you you are wrong and living off of 40 year old stereotypes. Do they demand "couches on wheels"? To a degree, that's why Camry and Accord get bigger, wider, and heavier every generation. Sure, Americans like their suspensions softer than an enthusiast would like. But the jello-sprung land yachts of the 1960s are gone.

[kekekeke]

Originally Posted by janstett

You have to let go of the 1960s musclecar stereotypes. Many American cars truly do suck, but it is not the 1960s with 427 big blocks with 9 inch ride heights running 5000 pound cars with solid axles and leaf springs. #1, American car companies don't make those kinds of cars anymore (or do they -- SUV?). #2, more and more Americans don't like the cars American companies are producing. American cars have become soulless, amorphous, underpowered front-wheel drive wimpmobiles, unexciting examples of cars made for rental fleets. The best selling cars in the US are the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. The best selling "premium" car is the BMW 3 series. So you're going to tell me what Americans do and don't like? That we don't demand quality interiors and good handling? I'm going to tell you you are wrong and living off of 40 year old stereotypes. Do they demand "couches on wheels"? To a degree, that's why Camry and Accord get bigger, wider, and heavier every generation. Sure, Americans like their suspensions softer than an enthusiast would like. But the jello-sprung land yachts of the 1960s are gone.

But he's right. I've read somewhere that only about 1 in 20 cars in America are manual. That goes to do that most Americans DO want an automatic sofa.

[ClarksonIsFat]

That MUST mean we all want big floaty "sofas". Yep, irrefutable proof right there. There are no automatic or manumatic cars in the world that are at all sporty. /sarcasm

Look, there are people who want luxurious land cruisers everywhere, even Europe. I know that you'd rather have us believe everyone across the pond drives Ferraris and Lamborghinis to the grocery store, but there are PLENTY of boring sofas sold in Europe. They just happen to be smaller....loveseats if you will.

This holds especially true in America due to our road structure. We have vast expanses of straight highways that we use to traverse from one state to another. Stiff suspensions and loud exhausts aren't welcome friends on long road trips, and I think everyone in the world can agree on that.

That being said, we're degrading into the same tired argument that's been waged on every internet forum known to man, and it's nothing more than an exercise in futility. So let me just end it here.

There are two types of drivers in every country. Commuters and enthusiasts. Commuters chose the safest, easiest-to-drive, most cost-effective, and smoothest riding cars available to them. Driving is nothing more than point-A-to-point-B. Enthusiasts crave the ability to get from point A to point B as fast as possible. We love power and razor-sharp handling.

I would hazard a guess that, per capita, there are just as many American Enthusiasts as there are European Enthusiasts. We simply have a much larger population, so it's easy for American enthusiasts to get lost in the sea of Ford F150 driving, McDonalds inhaling, average Joes.

The main difference between us then, (besides the layout of our roads), are the automobile manufacturers. European manufacturers tend to listen to their target market much more effectively than American manufacturers. Instead of giving us what we want, the "Big 3" have been shoving one boring FWD sedan after another down our throats. American enthusiasts KNOW this, and that's why we import so damn many BMW/Mercedes/Ferrari/Lamborghini/Lotus/etc manufactured cars. It's also why we hold our few shining examples so dear. I.E. the Z06.

Please stop making broad stereotype-derived statements based on what you've "heard". I'm an American and I'm telling you you're wrong assuming we all want big lazy cars. I don't understand why some of you feel it necessary to take a jab at America on this forum. We're all here because we're enthusiasts and love the best shows ever made for enthusiasts: Top Gear and Fifth Gear.

My apologies for the novel. I hope this came across as politely as possible.

[kekekeke]

Also most Americans can't drive a manual.

[BlaRo]

Originally Posted by kekekeke

Also most Americans can't drive a manual.

OMG!

And what are you trying to get at with that? Because most people in America can't be bothered to be constantly shifting gears though our wide, straight highways instead of our narrow twisty city streets like in Europe, that MUST mean that nobody in America likes cars.

We may be different from Europe but that doesn't mean we're backwards.

[gldude]

Originally Posted by youngwarrior

I think the Z06 arguments are because of how people word things. Americans will say its a supercar, whilst us brits who have the sagaris which is faster, wouldnt call it a supercar.

Well, it wasn't faster on this track

The Vette had a 1:22.4 laptime, and the Sagaris posted a 1:24.6.

I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one other track time where the Z06 was faster than a Sagaris, and I haven't seen any where the reverse was true yet. Not clear the Sagaris is faster in a straight line either; I've seen it quoted as "low 12's in the 1/4", which the Vette beats.

Don't get me wrong, the Sagaris is a lovely car... I'd take one in a heartbeat. I've always had a soft spot for TVRs. But the Vette is very impressively fast around any but the smallest tracks.

[gldude]

Originally Posted by tloekke

The corvette. Where I live, it costs about the same as a ferrari.

Jeezus - where do you live, anyway?

Where I live, you could get 3 of those Vettes for the price of the Ferraris that roughly match it in performance, unless you start adding options to the Ferrari, and then it's more like 4... and you'd still have some left over for a decent commuter car. The Vette is overpriced in the UK, but still cheaper than the Ferraris by quite a margin I think.

Hard to imagine the price being similar at all... either you're getting your Ferraris really, really cheap, or you're getting ripped off on the Vettes, which by all rights should be cheaper by a factor of ~3.

[FATMOUSE]

Can we please, please delete the Vette flamewar posts, or move them to another topic.

Getting back to the episode, I don't like the filters used for the Koeniggsegg and Corvette reviews. The editing in the Jag XK review is better, I think, even if the other two are not bad.

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by janstett

Unfortunately the very same argument you use against the Ferrari applies to the XLR.

The XLR costs twice as much as a base Corvette and doesn't offer $50k of improvement -- it uses a more "sophisticated" (but less powerful) 32 valve DOCH Northstar V8, and doesn't even offer a manual (!!!). For a $100k car, people expect improvement especially in refinement, build quality, and interior materials if you're going to charge Mercedes money. And they don't get it, in spades, with the XLR.

I'm not entirely convinced that the Cadillac has any worse quality then a Merc. Mercedes Benz isn't exactly the pinnacle of quality these days. And while the XLR may be lacking in the interior materials department, it's still a nice car, even for the money. And if you're going to bring up Mercedes, why would you bring up the manual transmission problem? I don't want to start pointing fingers or making accusations, but there seems to be a lot of double standards when it comes to American cars.

For example, during this episode of TG when Clarkson pointed out the "flimsy" rear bumper on the base C6, but he never bothered with it on the Z06. And then it hit me, if you listen to the part when Clarkson is talking about the materials used on the Z06, he says the bumpers are made of carbon fiber. So there you have it. It's fine if the bumpers are flimsy, so long as they're CF. But if they're light weight plastic... the car sucks.

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by kekekeke

Also most Americans can't drive a manual.

Bull. Most Americans can drive stick, but most choose not to. And it seems like most car builders are following suit. Don't you notice quite a few brands equipping their performance cars with flappy paddle gear-boxes nowadays? They're semi-automatic transmissions, most of which have full-auto modes so you don't even have to bother flipping a paddle. Look at America's top dogs; the Corvette Z06, the Dodge Viper SRT-10, and the Ford GT. They all have manual transmissions and none have an automatic option. Yet, you can buy a Ferrari F430, Porsche 911 Turbo, BMW M5 M6 M3, or even a Bugatti Veyron with Automatic transmissions.

[No Boss]

Is it even possible to lock a "Specific Episode Discussion" thread?....Seriously.

[kekekeke]

Originally Posted by TomCat

Bull. Most Americans can drive stick, but most choose not to. And it seems like most car builders are following suit. Don't you notice quite a few brands equipping their performance cars with flappy paddle gear-boxes nowadays? They're semi-automatic transmissions, most of which have full-auto modes so you don't even have to bother flipping a paddle. Look at America's top dogs; the Corvette Z06, the Dodge Viper SRT-10, and the Ford GT. They all have manual transmissions and none have an automatic option. Yet, you can buy a Ferrari F430, Porsche 911 Turbo, BMW M5 M6 M3, or even a Bugatti Veyron with Automatic transmissions.

You can buy those cars with auto transmission because Americans can't drive manuals and want auto. Europeans will always choose the stick. I've read somewhere that most of the Corvettes sold in America are automatic.

[fbc]

*sigh* A moment of silence please for the passing of another thread due to the Vette / American cars / American drivers round-and-round-we-go 'debate'