[10x03] October 28th, 2007

[swordznsorcery]

Originally Posted by pepitko

I really liked James's review of the RR, it really fits him that kind of review and I am starting to feel sorry for him, because of the abuse he gets from JC and Hammond.

Turn about is fair play, you know. I've been revisiting the earlier seasons a lot recently, and in those Jezza and James seem to be teasing Hammond the whole time. Now the teasing is going in a different direction, is all.

[BlaRo]

This episode was simply PERFECT.

If I want to introduce new friends to the wonder of Top Gear, this is what I'll be showing them.

[WannabeSS]

Just watched it LOL

Cant wait until next week

[WillDAQ]

Originally Posted by Suedschleife

First off my education on the subject is mostly from the history channel , so I am not trying to correct you, I merely want to understand.

No problem, lets see what we can do without resorting to a lecture series on aerospace engineering!

From what I seen, fly-by-wire was initially conceived to save weight/space compared to mechanical/hydraulic systems. Later generations with flight computers resulted in other benefits like automatic failure compensation, aircraft "ESP" (stall avoidance etc).

Well, probably the most important thing to understand is that fly by wire does not replace the hydraulic systems of an aircraft (well OK they can kind of in some cases but they don't on the Eurofighter). There is still a full redundant hydraulics system for the control surfaces. For fly by wire the hydraulic control boxes now take an electrical input from a computer rather than the pilot's mechanical input of your standard hydraulic power control system. Hence no real weight is saved in that respect. Fly by wire does allow you to replace complex linkages and mechanical mixers with a black box though.

It also allows dual-purpose sub-supersonic configurations without (or less of) the previously required compromise for stability in one or both speed ranges. In the Eurofighter's case it allows for greater agility at subsonic speeds with little impact on supersonic performance. Question is, was that a design target or just a side effect.

If you're creating a subsonic aircraft you really don't need a fly by wire system to make it agile. You may need hydraulics to operate the control surfaces but not the clever box. Something I probably should have made clearer is that making an aircraft unstable does not mean it will be more agile.

Agility in simple terms depends on the ability of the aircraft to change the amount of lift it generates rapidly, which is not directly related to stability. It is indirectly related as a less stable aircraft means more control authority, but the limit of agility rarely is control authority so the limit of agility isn't affected.

All that said, while trying to reduce trim drag we get a happy side effect. Because the aircraft is unstable in the subsonic flight condition, when it goes supersonic (and the aerodynamic centre moves back) you can design it to end up with a very slightly stable aircraft. Which means we can make the most of the control authority we do have.. but not too much because we're still limited to 9G ish and you don't want to rip the wings off.

So stability =! agility but can help.

Originally Posted by indianajohn

I explained all in my post, #111. Hammond's explanation is correct and (again) has absolutely nothing to do with supersonic flight.

A normal plane is designed to be stable. One example would be to design some dihedral into the wing, which provides stability around the roll axis. Modern fighter jets are designed the opposite way, making them very difficult if not impossible to control by the pilot. The computers do that. Why do you guys keep going on about supersonic flight?

Hammond is correct in that it is unstable and hence needs fly by wire, but not correct in that the reason for fly by wire is not really to make the aircraft more agile.

I'm also gonna have to call you on the dihedral, dihedral doesn't provide lateral (roll) stability, it provides side-slip stability. That may be what it says in most sources of aerodynamic knowledge on the net (and some text books!) but just like the Bernoulli explanation for lift, it is wrong.


Anywho, I apologies for dragging the thread off topic, would a 'science and maths' thread be better for this sort of thing?

Will

[efoolution]

Originally Posted by WillDAQ

Anywho, I apologies for dragging the thread off topic, would a 'science and maths' thread be better for this sort of thing?

Nah, we´ll just end up solving all the world scientific Problems and there´ll be nothing left to rant about ...

Continue please ...

[RichW]

Originally Posted by Austere

Yeah, that was pretty good. Way better than the last two. No cocking about (except maybe for that Peel segment) and plenty of cars!

A proper car review by James (for the first time since the Honda Civic I believe) was nice to see but the review wasn't really anything to write home about. I think he's rusty after 18 months in storage.

The news had its moments. That phone-in parking thing just looks ridiculous. And the no smoking furor is ridiculous as well. I don't why you Brits put up with it...
It's getting really annoying that the only things Hammond ever seems to say to James are derogatory. James seems pretty bored with it as well. Let the man speak you little prick!

That 599 is old news and so is the launch control "secret".

I skipped the SIARPC segment.

The Peel segment was cool until it kept going on and on and then I started thinking "OK, he better have a good point at the end of this." but he didn't. I thought it was (like a lot segments these days) pointless, not very funny and way too long.

The result of the Veyron thing was pretty much a foregone conclusion, really. I've seen races between very fast cars and jet planes before and the plane always seems to win (but I understand this sort of clip is more for the kids at home and since I'm not a kid I didn't really expect it to hold my interest)...

Come to think of it it was a pretty weak episode, actually. Even tho it was full of cars...

I have to say I agree with everything you said. Particularly the part about the news. Its pretty obvious now that whole section is just to bash James. And Im sick of it really.

On a related note, is it imperative that Clarkson is in EVERY section of the show? Save the Roller (Nice shots of my home town ) and the Veyron (Contrived, but I love fast jets especially when they take off and just f off into the sky vertically! ) He was in every part. And even when Hammond was doing the Revington he had to jump in. Like he did with the parking Lexus (which 5th Gear demonstrated to work perfectly! btw)

And Im getting a little bored of the "Hammond whitens his teeth joke" or any other number of repetitive "Gags" he comes out with which we've heard hundreds of times before.

Im also with most on the 599 review. This car has been available for over a year now! Can we expect a F430 Scuderia vs 997 GT2 test in 18-24 months? And also Im sick of seeing supercars sliding sideways around that that same corner over and over and over again. The 911 Turbo review worked because it was outside the track.

Completely radomly though our TV guide magazine said "The Stig tests the Ferrari 599 around the track" Just an idea for Andy Wilman. Can we have the Stig ACTUALLY review a car. Preferably something supercar. I have a weird idea about the manetto on current Ferraris baffling Stig, and just putting it in full on Race mode and just going for it. (probably only funny to me though)

[swordznsorcery]

The news section isn't about bashing James. It does, however, provide an excellent forum for him to entertain us all with his endearing batty view on life. And then the others join in with the joke. If he didn't like it, he wouldn't do it.

[aalin13]

Originally Posted by tedb43o2o3

That Peel P50 is awesome........49cc engine top speed 35 mph 100 mpg.....
The Stig did drive the new Lambo Reventon....will they introduce that car? and put that car no the track to see the lap time?? cant wait to see that...

I think Reventon's lap time will be more or less identical to the one posted by LP640 as they are basically the same car. Different body, but same everything else. IIRC, the engine is the same too, but blueprinted to ensure the one in Reventon all produce 650hp whereas the engine in LP640 only has to produce 640hp minimum. Either way, love the body though, it's a great looking car, not so sure about the dials. It looks cool, no doubt about it, but the jet fighter looking dials look rather confusing to me actually, or may be i'm just getting bit old for it haha...

I love the review about the Roller, James May at his best. He has also managed to make the car look extremely cool and i really like the Drophead in that colour, rather than the blue one we see in official photo.

News, funny but not much on cars. I was hoping for information/comments about cars from the Tokyo motor show.

Not sure if i agree about the segment on 599GTB, yes it does seem lacking in soul and passion compared to old Ferraris, but it is still a fantastic car. Good lap time though, however bit surprised that it is behind SLR. Similar power, weight, better chassis and gearbox, i thought 599 would go faster than SLR.

The segement about Peel is just quite funny and the bit about Lexus is bit stupid. Tom on FG has shown that it works, so either TG simply resent new technology or they're too stupid for the parking system

As for the Veyron, somehow i wasn't that impressed by it, the Eurofighter looks fantastic, so does the Veyron. But i'm bored of shows about how fast the Veyron is, would much rather see how fast it goes around track and how it handles. Guess it's not TG's fault though if VW won't let them time its lap..

[_HighVoltage_]

My favourite bits - James driving into Cocking ( I almost fell off my chair when I saw this) and the fake telephone conversation (Jeremy asking Hammond about teeth whitening LOL!)

[cdbob]

I loved the Rolls-Royce Review, the rest of the episode was great too, this really felt like an episode from season six or seven and was very good. Job well done mates.

[purplehaze]

this was a pretty amazing episode, and lol at james for his tampon part. This whole episode was james may bashing and the peel p50 lol i loved it when they he was driving it around the bbc building. The fighter vs the veyron was epic and will be one of the few things that will stand out for years to come. take that fifth gear.

[dj.TAKA]

The peel passing in the background during the news was a good laugh.

Originally Posted by MoeB

Fantastic show. Absolutely

Haha, Yahtzee. *stabs forks in eyes*

[Bakis]

Great episode.

With the Bugatti v Typhoon Fighter, i count it was about 3 seconds difference in the end. I reckon the 'wash' from the jet engines would slow the progression of the Bugatti by a lot.

I would have set them up wider apart for 'wash to not gave any effect of Veyron and also maybe have a cambered turn where the Veyron needs to preform u-turn this would make it a very close race. Or maybe have it like a relay once first Veyron goes over 1 mile other one sets off. They had 2 there so why not use them?

[Zegna]

Originally Posted by Bakis

Or maybe have it like a relay once first Veyron goes over 1 mile other one sets off. They had 2 there so why not use them?

I really like your idea.

Plus, in the hangar shots they could then put the two Veyron together facing the sole Typhoon. The same goes in the runway shots where they could show the two Veyrons are really "sticking" together to fight the Typhoon.

Definitely adds even more drama, IMHO.

[Red_Bull]

I guess an entire season of cocking about has lowered everyone's expectations somewhat. It was a good episode. Not great and doesn't place inside my top five. I can't really add to the reasons Austere gave but I agree with them for most part. It was refreshing to see the whole episode based almost entirely on cars, but there was nothing spectacular, although I did really enjoy the Peel P50 segment!

I want one.

[ycchan]

Yes yes. This episode was spot on! 10/10.

Lambo Reventon: Anyone notice the check engine light lol
Clarkson saying how fast the 599 gearbox is. DSG is way quicker still. 100ms vs 8ms
P50 segment is hilarious. Especially him circling behind the news reporters.

[3Colin]

I agree in the pantheon of Top Gear it's not worthy of its own idol, but this episode recalled Series 4 - 6 and that makes it very good. Let's hope the rest of the season can live up to this episode!

I am a bit worried that the next episode will be more pointless "cocking about" though, as exotic as it will be...

[swordznsorcery]

Let's just make one thing clear. Cocking about is never pointless.

[stinger]

JM: I object the 'beige'.

HAHAHA

[coloradoSTi]

Originally Posted by 3Colin

I agree in the pantheon of Top Gear it's not worthy of its own idol, but this episode recalled Series 4 - 6 and that makes it very good. Let's hope the rest of the season can live up to this episode!

I am a bit worried that the next episode will be more pointless "cocking about" though, as exotic as it will be...

i love the cocking about. Its why i watch the show. If i want a detailed review of a car - i can get on the intertubes and read all the specs and details.

Top Gear is an (illegally obtained) international phenomenon ... and in my opinion, here's why...

1. Cinematography. I have yet to see a movie or a TV show in the colonies (removing Kubrick from the mix)... in my recolection.
2. Characters. True, they aren't characters which are written by some pompus, Bush-hating tofu eating comedy writer... they are characters none the less. What makes them endearing is the fact that they're real and that they're atypical and they actually viscerally care about what they're talking about.

Or

The whole of television is full of people who are the opposite of Jezza, Hampster, and Captain Slow... this show is different. And all the other characters on TV are fake except in their hatred of Bush. Beyond that, they have no passion or zeal or love of anything.

3. Cars. Cars that you or I will hardly ever get to drive in a way we'll never get to drive them. For example... before i die, i'd like to drive a British Racing Green DB-S on the Isle of Man for a day. That will most likely never happen. But i've seen it (in that weird orange) and it was tremendous and it was honest and it was passionate. every time someone writes in to complain that TG doesn't review the new C1, i completely feel for Jeremey and the lot... like - look, if you give a smeg about the new C1 - get your arse down to the showroom and go fscking drive the C1.

I WANT Jezza to tell me how Biblically fast and scary and spine tingling it is to take a Koeingsegg CCX around a corner and then end up backward in a cloud of smoke... because I'LL NEVER GET TO!

What the TG guys do is bring you and me and anyone brave enough to actually like jokes about the government officials screwing us with speed cameras and the Germans and the Americans (we are all stupid and fat.. its true!) to a place we will never be able to go to - and they do it in a way that we're just one of the guys cocking about with them!

Throw down on the best camera work on telly on the planet, and that's *why* 20,000 downloads of the 10.3 episode happened within 3 hours of the show's completion of airing!!!

20,000... for a TV show on a tiny island... in 3 hours and 70,000 in 4 days??!

That's a phenomenon that few shows have ever achieved.