The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly discussion thread

[Disciple]

Originally Posted by TomCat

You said it was aimed at the American audience. Not selling it in America must be more of that famous British irony, I guess.

Americans can build cars. In fact, the biggest studies of build quality show American cars rank quite closely with Japanese and European products. But people tend to make excuses about these studies and ignore them, better to base one's opinion on fanboyish daydreams I suppose.

The problem is Clarkson couldn't even tell the truth about what engines are in what cars. So what chance does he have of telling the truth about subjective things?

What I said was that most of what Jeremy Clarkson said was tongue in cheek humour aimed at blah blah... I didn't say the DVD was aimed at americans man. Who knows who the DVD is aimed at? People who like watching car programs I would assume. Oh and btw, I'm not british. I'm interested in these studies showing american built cars rank closely in build quality with Japanese and Euro cars, can you provide a few links? You need to realise, the things he says about the cars are his opinion and he's basing that opinion on actually driving the cars. You choose to watch the DVD knowing he hates american cars to begin with I mean what can you expect? Why not instead of whinging about it on an internet forum, go and drive a bunch of British and European cars on a track and rubbish them all and document it?

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by nomix

So that means it becomes cheaper? Because it's taxes? Don't you get the point? You can't blody buy anything without money. It doesn't matter in any way what a car costs in Turkmenistan, what matters is what YOU must pay for it.

Every country is different. The only fact is what the car costs to build and what it retails for in it's home market. You want to compare a $40,000 car that cost you $120,000 against a $120,000 that cost you $120,000 and be surprised about which is best? lol Well, duh.

Originally Posted by nomix

I never called it bling. And comming back to costs, you haven't given any answer, would the Escalade or H2 have been faster up the mountain than a Defender?

Other people were calling it Bling, many times. I wasn't directing that comment at you alone.

Defender? No, probably not. Hummer H1, maybe. Merc G-wagon, maybe. Military rigs do pretty good off-road.

Originally Posted by nomix

You don't see anything wrong with arresting teens for doing something that doesn't harm anyone other than themselves?

They rarely get arrested. And when they do, they don't go to a cell, they get dropped off at home with their parents.

Originally Posted by nomix

You threat 20yos like we threat 16yos. In some cities, before you're 21, you can be put in a cell for being outside after 0100. What's that all about?

What cities? I never heard of that. At age 18 you're an adult.

Originally Posted by nomix

And why do you let people drive at the age of 16 - which means they can kill other people, a car IS a weapon - but deny them a drink at the age of 18? Any civilized country will allow a person who can be sent to war to buy a bloody beer!

I'm only 22, not 68. I know how it was like. There have been many proposals to lower it to 18, as well as, legalizing many other drugs.

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by Disciple

What I said was that most of what Jeremy Clarkson said was tongue in cheek humour aimed at blah blah... I didn't say the DVD was aimed at americans man.

You said, and I quote:

Originally Posted by Disciple

Most of it is tongue in cheek humour aimed at an insecure american audience to get a reaction.

Would you mind explaining how it was "aimed an american audience", but not aimed at Americans? I'm having trouble understanding this.

Originally Posted by Disciple

I'm interested in these studies showing american built cars rank closely in build quality with Japanese and Euro cars, can you provide a few links?

[bartboy9891]

Originally Posted by nomix

First, which road tests? And under which conditions?

If you are arguing about prize, a Defender would probably beat the H2 anyway, and that costs how much, a nickle?

But as pointed out above, the H2 costs about the same as the RR in GB. Jezza lives in GB, not USA. The DVD is meant for Europe, primarily, therefore the prize in Europe is a lot more relevant than that in the US. Is that so hard to understand?

And to be quite honest, I doubt an Escalade (Marmalade ) handles, performs, is more comfortable, has a better interior and has better fuel conumption than a Range Rover.

The Escalade is quicker than the Range Rover, but it isnt more comfortable, it doesnt have anywhere near as good of an interior, and the actual tested MPG in an Escalade is lower than that of a Range Rover (nonsupercharged, according to C/D)

I dont like most SUV's, but the Escalade is one that i find pretty useless. For something that massive, there really isnt all that much space in the interior. The Lincoln Navigator feel much larger when you are inside. The fact that most of the ones that you'll find on the lot are fitted with the optional 22" inch rims is ridiculous. I dont find the facelift to be very attractive at all. While the Range Rover, X5 and LX470 all feel stable and composed like a large car would, the Escalade feels like a large SUV which is exactly what the Chevy counterpart feels like...and thats significantly cheaper.

[Disciple]

How hard is it mate. I said that what Jeremy Clarkson said in the DVD (meaning words he spoke in the actual film) were aimed at the american insecurity. You're trying to imply I said that the DVD as a piece of film is aimed at americans. Two completely different things that require some form of interpretation. You with me now?

That graph does nothing for me. I can make a graph like that too to rubbish Lexus build quality. I want some proper tests with reports and reviews because from personal experience, Japanese cars have it over everything. I don't find European cars all that reliable either.

[TomCat]

I can see this is going no where fast.

[nomix]

Originally Posted by TomCat

Every country is different. The only fact is what the car costs to build and what it retails for in it's home market. You want to compare a $40,000 car that cost you $120,000 against a $120,000 that cost you $120,000 and be surprised about which is best? lol Well, duh.

I understand your point. But you still have to factor in the prize of purchase. For UK drivers the US prize is very irrelevant.

Defender? No, probably not. Hummer H1, maybe. Merc G-wagon, maybe. Military rigs do pretty good off-road.

That is true. But I guess you get my point.

They rarely get arrested. And when they do, they don't go to a cell, they get dropped off at home with their parents.

What cities? I never heard of that. At age 18 you're an adult.

I only pass on what I've been told by Norwegians in america as exchange students. Really don't remember which city.

I'm only 22, not 68. I know how it was like. There have been many proposals to lower it to 18, as well as, legalizing many other drugs.

That would be an improvement. I really don't think it's right that someone can be drafted, but can't buy a beer - yes, I am repeating myself, but it just seems so wrong.

Originally Posted by bartboy9891

The Escalade is quicker than the Range Rover, but it isnt more comfortable, it doesnt have anywhere near as good of an interior, and the actual tested MPG in an Escalade is lower than that of a Range Rover (nonsupercharged, according to C/D)

I find that quite interesting.

I dont like most SUV's, but the Escalade is one that i find pretty useless. For something that massive, there really isnt all that much space in the interior. The Lincoln Navigator feel much larger when you are inside. The fact that most of the ones that you'll find on the lot are fitted with the optional 22" inch rims is ridiculous. I dont find the facelift to be very attractive at all. While the Range Rover, X5 and LX470 all feel stable and composed like a large car would, the Escalade feels like a large SUV which is exactly what the Chevy counterpart feels like...and thats significantly cheaper.

Feels good to know I am not the only person with that sort of feeling.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally Posted by Disciple

How hard is it mate. I said that what Jeremy Clarkson said in the DVD (meaning words he spoke in the actual film) were aimed at the american insecurity. You're trying to imply I said that the DVD as a piece of film is aimed at americans. Two completely different things that require some form of interpretation. You with me now?

Read your post:

"aimed at an insecure american audience to get a reaction."

Let's go over that one more time, shall we? I'll even highlight the important part!

Aimed at an insecure American audience.

Now, let's remove adjectives, because they're evidently just clouding things up for you:

Aimed at an American audience.

Whaddaya know! You did say it was aimed at an American audience!

That graph does nothing for me. I can make a graph like that too to rubbish Lexus build quality. I want some proper tests with reports and reviews because from personal experience, Japanese cars have it over everything. I don't find European cars all that reliable either.

You know what? JD Power's constant research of millions of consumers > Your bullshit opinion. Your so-called "experiences" mean precisely fuck all when compared to JD Power.

[Disciple]

Originally Posted by BerserkerCatSplat

Read your post:

"aimed at an insecure american audience to get a reaction."

Let's go over that one more time, shall we? I'll even highlight the important part!

Aimed at an insecure American audience.

Now, let's remove adjectives, because they're evidently just clouding things up for you:

Aimed at an American audience.

Whaddaya know! You did say it was aimed at an American audience!



You know what? JD Power's constant research of millions of consumers > Your bullshit opinion. Your so-called "experiences" mean precisely fuck all when compared to JD Power.

Fuck this is hilarious. What he said in the film is aimed at insecure americans, and obviously there are a few here. Not the DVD you fucking halfwits. Once more, the words spoken in the DVD, not the DVD as a seperate entity. One could conclude from that if one had a brain capable of processing more actions than one at a time, that Jeremy's opinions were stated in a way to ruffle some feathers, and they sure as hell have here. I've never heard of JD Power, so like I said you were entitled to be wrong, which you now are, that was my opinion. Feel free to keep being wrong btw...

[Ventura6]

Originally Posted by BlaRo

I agree, but they're making an improvement over the last 6-8 years. The new Cadillacs, Chrysler's 300C and various Dodges, the Mustang, etc. They've got a long way to go, but half the battle is winning consumer perception. That's where our pride in American products has failed; American perception still is that we build crappy, unreliable, boring cars that nobody likes, no matter how much they improve, we'll still think that.

What's the point, they figure, in making quality products if nobody thinks you've made quality products? American cars have been very reliable over the last 10 years, but nobody's going to believe it. Like I said, though, there's still a long way to go (the interiors still fall apart), but everybody's blind derision of anything from Detroit is completely unjustified.

I don't think you're completely wrong. We do build reliable cars. But there is a big leap between a reliable car and a quality car. You don't feel reliability when you are opening the door, running your hands over the steering wheel, and pressing buttons. What you feel when you do that is, quality.

I have been in many cars, and the impression is always the same. When I get in an American car, Shelby GT-500, last generation Ford Mustang, new Dodge Charger, Suburban, Trans-Am (owned one), Dodge 1500 (owned one too), I always feel the same way. I feel that the car was stamped out by people who couldn't give a shit. Everything works, but nothing feels good against the skin.

Contrast this with other things I have driven, BMW 330, Lexus GS430 and GX470, Toyota Camry, Volkswagen Bug, and Honda Accord. All of these cars feel similar. Nearly everything in them feels good to the touch. I can sit in them and appreciate all the little details that are simply lacking in their American counterparts. Somebody gave a damn with then designed and built it.

Thats the difference. It isn't about cost differences or perception or reliability. It's about getting in a car and being able to say, "Hey, they didn't use the cheapest possible materials in here." I wish I could say that about American cars, but I can't. And I hope someday I can, because right now, we are a long way behind in this area.

[Vitamin J]

[Disciple]

Originally Posted by Ventura6

I don't think you're completely wrong. We do build reliable cars. But there is a big leap between a reliable car and a quality car. You don't feel reliability when you are opening the door, running your hands over the steering wheel, and pressing buttons. What you feel when you do that is, quality.

I have been in many cars, and the impression is always the same. When I get in an American car, Shelby GT-500, last generation Ford Mustang, new Dodge Charger, Suburban, Trans-Am (owned one), Dodge 1500 (owned one too), I always feel the same way. I feel that the car was stamped out by people who couldn't give a shit. Everything works, but nothing feels good against the skin.

Contrast this with other things I have driven, BMW 330, Lexus GS430 and GX470, Toyota Camry, Volkswagen Bug, and Honda Accord. All of these cars feel similar. Nearly everything in them feels good to the touch. I can sit in them and appreciate all the little details that are simply lacking in their American counterparts. Somebody gave a damn with then designed and built it.

Thats the difference. It isn't about cost differences or perception or reliability. It's about getting in a car and being able to say, "Hey, they didn't use the cheapest possible materials in here." I wish I could say that about American cars, but I can't. And I hope someday I can, because right now, we are a long way behind in this area.

Very well said mate. Americans might make nice cars for america and for the most part they're probably very good (not in my experiences, but nevertheless) for americans. But like Ventura said, the quality just isn't there. Things like interior plastics, suspension and ride quality are things you can't leave out when building a car, and historically these are the things that are rubbish on american cars.

[Vitamin J]

I'll never understand why Britons are on such a vendetta against American cars. No other nationality from Germans to Japanese rags on American cars half as much as you Brits do.

[NecroJoe]

Originally Posted by Disciple

I've never heard of JD Power, so like I said you were entitled to be wrong, which you now are, that was my opinion. Feel free to keep being wrong btw...

Jeremy has mentioned JD power a lot before. I remember specifically the Merc CLS AMG review, when he spoke about how Mercedes used to be first in the JD power "Initial Quality" survey, and now(then) were 9 from the bottom.

http://www.jdpower.com/global/content/about.asp

~nj?

[Peter3hg]

Originally Posted by Disciple

Fuck this is hilarious. What he said in the film is aimed at insecure americans, and obviously there are a few here. Not the DVD you fucking halfwits. Once more, the words spoken in the DVD, not the DVD as a seperate entity. One could conclude from that if one had a brain capable of processing more actions than one at a time, that Jeremy's opinions were stated in a way to ruffle some feathers, and they sure as hell have here. I've never heard of JD Power, so like I said you were entitled to be wrong, which you now are, that was my opinion. Feel free to keep being wrong btw...

Oh FFS you really are a retard. If something he said in the film is aimed at "insecure Americans" then the DVD has to be aimed at Americans by default.

[Disciple]

Originally Posted by Peter3hg

Oh FFS you really are a retard. If something he said in the film is aimed at "insecure Americans" then the DVD has to be aimed at Americans by default.

No it doesn't. He can say the majority of things (which is what I originally said) to the insecure american audience, and the rest to whoever else pleases to listen. So, by default you're retarded.

[Peter3hg]

Originally Posted by Disciple

No it doesn't. He can say the majority of things (which is what I originally said) to the insecure american audience, and the rest to whoever else pleases to listen. So, by default you're retarded.

I can see you clearly don't understand the most basic of concepts so I'll try and keep it simple for you.
If he is saying something to an "insecure American audience" then you need Americans to watch it for it to have any point. If you need Americans to watch it for the above reason then Americans form part of your target audience, thus you are saying the DVD is aimed at Americans, at least to some degree.

[janstett]

Originally Posted by nomix

The problem is, that because of the fact you have no privacy, and you can sue for pretty much anything, big corporations can sue, and out of fear, someone actually pays out in a settlement. I don't like that. It just means big corporations can frighten people to pay for no demage done.

I just don't like it.

Actually, what big corporations sue? The problem is the reverse and an easy way for Lawyers to fatten their wallets -- the Class Action lawsuit.

The lawyer can claim a product caused "widespread harm" with no particular plaintiff and collect a big payday by suing on the behalf of the public in general -- pocketing 30%.

[janstett]

Originally Posted by BlaRo

What's the point, they figure, in making quality products if nobody thinks you've made quality products? American cars have been very reliable over the last 10 years, but nobody's going to believe it. Like I said, though, there's still a long way to go (the interiors still fall apart), but everybody's blind derision of anything from Detroit is completely unjustified.

Automobile Magazine had a review of the Saturn Aura (based on Opels) and hit the nail on the head. I quote...

Originally Posted by Robert Cumberford, Automobile Magazine

I saw an Aura prototype at Pebble Beach in 2004. Overall, it was much like the cars that went on sale in August, but it had a sumptuous and beautifully detailed interior that looked (and probably was) expensive. But GM cannot seem to help itself; no matter how hard designers try, the financial guys will not let buyers have really nice cabin furnishings. Bean counters love to cut costs from the part of the car that buyers see most: the interior. It doesn't seem to have penetrated GM's corporate consciousness that people will willingly and cheerfully pay for nice appointments.

...

GM's car development system is broken, Bob Lutz's overhyped but genuine car-guy presence not withstanding. Two years ago, the Aura was highly promising, but the cars on sale today are disappointing. Keith Crain from Automotive News summed it up nicely last spring: "The reality is that engineers and designers create great cars. Everyone else in the process simply waters down the product." Amen.

Automobile Magazine just hired a Limey as its new editor, Gavin Conway (any comments on this guy, Brits?).

[janstett]

Originally Posted by nomix

The problem with the cars built right now is that the designers listen to Michael Bolton and Phil Collins while designing the cars.

They need to listen to The Who and AC/DC. That should sort it.

Standing ovation for you!

Originally Posted by nomix

While I'm on it, what man designed the 69 Boss 429 Stang? Bring him back to life, and give him a job. Bob's your uncle.

IIRC it was (Larry?) Shinoda, who designed the first generation Camaro and then went to Ford and revamped those classic Mustangs that came in that time period. And I think he's still alive.