Open Letter for Jeremy Clarkson

[ixman]

This is posted here without hyperlinks, as I am confident that pretty much everyone here knows what I'm talking about. Original is at http://ixmanmortgage.blogspot.com/

Thanks!

Sony’s Gran Turismo 4 is a cool game. A really cool game. But it’s also an instructive one, too. Gran Turismo has track representations and driving dynamics that range from pretty-darn-close to virtually spot on (okay, except for the whole crashing with no damage thing). So much so that I think there’s a definite training element to the game. Certainly, with repetitive use on highly accurate simulations of world famous racing tracks, a small part of me, tiny though it is, actually navigates and learns their braking points, turns, and apexes.

So, as I navigated the sacred Nurburgring for what was probably the 300th time (virtually) from the air conditioned comfort of my living room, I remembered one of the best episodes of Britain’s best imports since Monty Python – Top Gear. In it, Jeremy Clarkson takes a diesel Jaguar and flogs it around the ‘Ring to increasingly better lap times. Seems when he started, his times were, uh, average. Then, after repeated laps, he got off a lap under ten minutes - respectable in a diesel, even if it is a Jag. The ‘Ring matron, a rather hot looking lady who drives a van around the course faster than most sports cars (and their male sports car drivers), managed 9 minutes 12 seconds.

The thought occurred to me: what if all of that learning curve could be accomplished in simulation? How would a complete piker such as myself do right out of the gate on the real Nurburgring? I’ve had some basic – very basic – racing and autocross experience, but I’m nowhere near a ringer of any kind, and I’ve never even been to Germany. Nonetheless, with practice on the simulated ‘Ring, I’ve cut my lap times markedly, much in the manner real drivers do – by learning the course. And, by learning the car.

Ah yes, the car. In Top Gear, Jeremy uses an S-Type Jaguar Diesel, and Gran Turismo 4 does not feature such a car in its lineup. It does however have a BMW 120d Sport, a car which, while excoriated by Clarkson, does at least have similar performance characteristics. It’s acceleration looks to be a little better, but it’s top speed a little lower. One is a BMW, the other a Jag – both meant to handle, albeit the Beemer will likely be more tossable.

So, a while back before this idea came about, I remember posting a 10 minute and 12 second run round the course in the 120d with very little knowledge of the simulated ‘Ring on the first go. With practice, that is now in the low 9’s.

I’m better primarily because of the acquired knowledge of the Nordschlieffe, of course. Now, how would that knowledge play in real life? I feel like I know the ‘Ring, or at least Sony’s fantastically accurate representation of the ‘Ring like the back of my hand. Could I indeed drive out on the course and drive it like I knew what I was doing?

So, what about it? I put it to the blokes at Top Gear (or Sony, for matter) to hold an experiment like this. I’ll even volunteer, heh. We could take a safe but acceptably fast and handling-oriented car, and three drivers: a top notch driver with experience and knowledge of the ‘Ring, a control subject, and me, or someone who has done what I’ve done with Gran Turismo 4. The control subject would be someone who has about as much experience as me, and has not seen the course, virtually or otherwise.

Ultimately, I maintain that the test subject will outperform the control subject by a significant margin, such that the test subject may approach the top notch driver in ability more so than the control driver, at least on this track. I assume clear weather conditions, and a modicum of driver skill all the way around, of course.

I’m not sure if a test like this would really prove anything, other than that it’s interesting. It may on the other hand give inspiration to thousands of committed GT4 junkies who may now fret that those hours at the PS2 will never amount to anything. Those junkies may then be able to take solace in the fact that GT4 has been officially certified as an educational tool.

(Oooooh! Ooooooh! Pick me! Pick me! /Shrek's donkey>)

Bob Brooks

Houston, TX
December 2005

[RichW]

He's doing Laguna Seca in a NSX in the next episode and comparing it to GT4

[No Boss]

Originally Posted by RichW

He's doing Laguna Seca in a NSX in the next episode and comparing it to GT4

well you pretty much killed this guys dreams for that letter....

[ixman]

Well dang....

heh

[marcos_eirik]

There is a very big difference between the 'Ring in real life and on GT4. In real life you must remember that it's an old track, and it is full of bumps. Walter Röhrl said in an interview that you probhably need an odd 50-60 laps to learn your way around and then the rest of time to learn the bumps. The bumps unsettles the car very much, so unlike any other track where you are best of just going for the stiffest possible setup for your car. On the ring you must find the best balance that soaks up the bumps, but still keeps the car steady without much roll or pich (sp?) You must also chose tires carefully, as just a little sidewall flex is needed to give optimal grip.

So the bumps are very important to learn, it't in fact knowledge of the bumps separates an average lap from a seriously fast one...

[Lukhas]

Originally Posted by marcos_eirik

pich (sp?)

pitch


I'd like to see a confrontation like this, really.
The Ring is one hell of a track, even in GT4 !

[bartboy9891]

Originally Posted by ixman

Well dang....

heh

lol, that must suck. there is that one guy who drove the Ford GT in GT4 endlessly at Laguna Seca, and the one thing he wanted was to drive it on Laguna Seca in real life. And he does a lap or two, and stalls it.

[Buktu]

People are really overestimating the level of simulatio in GT4.. It's not really that much of a serious simulation racer. It is, however, some of the most realistic racing you'll find on console (along with Forza on Xbox).

But the PC does have games which are rather more realistic - GTR is the newest, and the first one that comes to mind. An older game, like Grand Prix Legend are also extremely realistic.. Much more so than GT4.

Really, knowing the ring in GT4 might give you an idea about where the corners are and so on.. But i doubt you'll be able to put it to much use in reality. Theres just so many things that comes into play in real life, that cannot be simulated in a game. That sheer sense of speed, g-forces, and as mentioned, bumps in the road..

I really doubt you'll have any significant advantage over a non-gamer.. Well, you might have on the first few laps, but thats it =)

[Thanatos]

Originally Posted by Buktu

People are really overestimating the level of simulatio in GT4.. It's not really that much of a serious simulation racer. It is, however, some of the most realistic racing you'll find on console (along with Forza on Xbox).

But the PC does have games which are rather more realistic - GTR is the newest, and the first one that comes to mind. An older game, like Grand Prix Legend are also extremely realistic.. Much more so than GT4.

Really, knowing the ring in GT4 might give you an idea about where the corners are and so on.. But i doubt you'll be able to put it to much use in reality. Theres just so many things that comes into play in real life, that cannot be simulated in a game. That sheer sense of speed, g-forces, and as mentioned, bumps in the road..

I really doubt you'll have any significant advantage over a non-gamer.. Well, you might have on the first few laps, but thats it =)

amen to that. GTR and GPL are a bit extreme becuse they have race cars / formulas only, so if you want a highly realstic simulation of cars you should check GT legends which feature's GT cars from 60's and 70's where the lower classes are only lighty moded street cars. Live For Speed and rFactor are great too but they feature only fictional cars and tracks.

[SL65]

Originally Posted by ixman

So, a while back before this idea came about, I remember posting a 10 minute and 12 second run round the course in the 120d with very little knowledge of the simulated ‘Ring on the first go. With practice, that is now in the low 9’s.

So does this guy mention what controller he uses? Its easy to get those times on a controller, its just if you can get it using the DFP steering wheel which really matters.

I'm totally in love with the DFP now, its so fkn cool. I understand that its still not a 'driving simulator' as such but it has a nice feel to it. It picks up bumps in the road extreamly well. Doing over 400km/h in my 1000BHP + Mercedes SL65 is just awesome...the feel of it, the sensation, everything its just so awesome!

[Raven18940]

Originally Posted by Buktu

Really, knowing the ring in GT4 might give you an idea about where the corners are and so on.. But i doubt you'll be able to put it to much use in reality. Theres just so many things that comes into play in real life, that cannot be simulated in a game. That sheer sense of speed, g-forces, and as mentioned, bumps in the road..

I don't know, that have that sense of speed pretty good, and the bumps have kicked me numerous times on that track. Mid engined cars don't like bumps at 150 mph.

I love GT4, but I suck at compared to really good people. I can make people almost wet themselves when I'm behind the wheel. It's amazing how many people have no idea what a car is capable of in real life.

[dodgey]

Didn't some online reporter already do something like this with A.J. Allmendinger(?) on the Laguna Seca track with various cars and GT4? I'm sure I've read it somewhere before

[Magnet]

I've got a magazine article where someone tests the Nissan 350Z GT4 edition on the Nurburgring and on the PS2. Basically, it's as realistic as you'd want it to be, but you'd always travel faster in the game because of the lack of fear and consequences involved in driving on the computer.

[SL65]

Originally Posted by Magnet

I've got a magazine article where someone tests the Nissan 350Z GT4 edition on the Nurburgring and on the PS2. Basically, it's as realistic as you'd want it to be, but you'd always travel faster in the game because of the lack of fear and consequences involved in driving on the computer.

That would be the Drive newspaper article. I'v been doing that challange and I rekon the guy in it is BS'ing. He says he did it in 7:56 but I'v only been able to top 8:00 and it is as fast as I can go. If anyone can beat 8:00, they are like seriously good.

Heres the article:
http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/ar...?id=10209&vf=1

[Magnet]

Yeah, I had it in an issue of MOTOR, but it looks identical.

[911GT1]

bah... whoever think GT4 is a real driving simulator seriously need to get on a REAL car on REAL roads. The most realistic simulation game I've ever played was GTR. Driving a oreca viper on GT4 and in GTR the difference was day and night. And I've heard FIA GT drivers said that the level of realism of cars in GTR is about 50% to the real thing.
My brother owns an Evo7 and comparing it with the one in GT4 is just hysterical. It grips too much, the real thing is totally different... the only game that manages to feel like the real thing is Forza and even that is not that realistic. But GT4 cars does look a lot nicer tho....

[Themis]

I take sim-racing very seriously (you can check my signature to see the cockpit I'm using), so I think I'm entitled to give my point of view on the subject

GT4 is nowhere near being a true simulator. It IS a very good driving game, it is very good in giving you a few basics on track techniques, but it's not even close on giving you the right feel of the balance of the car. Yes, the FWD have some characteristic reactions in their handling and so do RWD and AWD, but this is only a small part of the whole process. I don't care about the damage model, I'm only critisizing car physics and driving model. GT4 is just not a simulator. It does have some elements, but not enough to make it a sim. This could be a bit subjective, but anyone who has tried...true sims can only agree with that, I believe. Having said that, GT4 really has the best ring yet. It is accurate, AFAIR.

ixman, don't take me wrong. I enjoyed reading your "query" and I've asked myself those questions many times. How much does sim racing make you better? Does it at all?? It's just that GT4 is not the kind of sim that will tell you all the truth about driving the ring.

Well, to find out, I've been to the Nurburgring twice (and probably I'll be there for the third time this summer). I've been driving around the Nurburgring in Grand Prix Legends (the mother of sims) and although that version is not as good as GT4's, I can say that I was more happy with my sub 10:20 B2B time on a Focus ST170. Second time I was there was on an M3, but since it wasn't my car and it was well above my own limits, I was only cruising in it

Yes, I did learn the ring from GPL, I knew all its corners like the back of my hand, I knew exactly what was coming up, but real life is a lot different. Bumps, crests, elevations, no matter how well modelled they are in GT4 or in GPL, they have to be explored in real life to be able to say that you "know your way around".

Good sims really do make you a lot more familiar with the track and can save you MANY laps before you start really learning your way around and enjoying yourself to the ring. But sims are NOT real life and you should not feel too confident about some very good laptimes you might be clocking in GT4. The ring needs exploration of your and your car's limits and need to be taken very seriously and with deep respect.

The verdict: GT4 gets you to learn Nurburgring's layout, yes, but GT4 is not a good simulator so driving an M3 on GT4 and driving an M3 in real life in the Ring is a LOT LOT LOT LOT different.

And yes, I believe good simulators can make you a bit better and can teach you stuff about track driving techiques, but in the end, nothing can replace real life experience.

P.S.
Thumbs up to the rest of you who said that GTR, GTL, rFactor and LFS are better...They ARE!! I was talking to a former racing driver of the 80s and he told me that the guys that made GTL have really hit bullseye on the physics. I think that tells us something

[jeffy777]

Originally Posted by Themis

Well, to find out, I've been to the Nurburgring twice (and probably I'll be there for the third time this summer). I've been driving around the Nurburgring in Grand Prix Legends (the mother of sims) and although that version is not as good as GT4's, I can say that I was more happy with my sub 10:20 B2B time on a Focus ST170. Second time I was there was on an M3, but since it wasn't my car and it was well above my own limits, I was only cruising in it

You mention GPL; what other games would you qualify as good sims?

[Themis]

You probably missed my P.S.

GTR and GTL are the two best at the moment, IMHO, and surely rFactor also slips into the category. I haven't tried LFS2 to be honest, but it should be a very good title from what I read.

[zeoniks]

GTR, GT Legends, Grand Prix Legends. Those games are nuts. After playing these games, you realize how consistent you have be going around a race track. I little too much throttle goinginto a corner, you understeer. Little too much throttle while in a corner, you oversteering. Too much braking, you're brakes lock up. Brake too early, lose two seconds on your lap.

It's crazy...