Tesla model S Options and Pricing

[smib]

I don't care about the environment, but I do like electric cars and would have one if/when I can get one priced in a way that will allow it to cost the same or less long(or more likely medium knowing me) term. It can be battery, hydrogen, series hybrid, whatever. I also want a Camaro, Raptor, and an Aventador, because all can be good and fun despite other people forming at the mouth over the power source.

 

[haz]

You hit the nail on its head. That's what our politicians have understood, that if laid out correctly, people will buy electric cars and that way contribute to saving the enivroment. Not that the enviroment is the buyers top priority, as you are saying, but buying an electric car has other more interesting incentives, such as price (no tax here), free parking with el-point(!), drive in the bus lane and free toll-roads.

 

[JimCorrigan]

Wow, that is a very enlightened and thought out argument.

Please outline what statement I made that is factually incorrect, then.

 

[H0nzik]

You hit the nail on its head. That's what our politicians have understood, that if laid out correctly, people will buy electric cars and that way contribute to saving the enivroment. Not that the enviroment is the buyers top priority, as you are saying, but buying an electric car has other more interesting incentives, such as price (no tax here), free parking with el-point(!), drive in the bus lane and free toll-roads.

Well, that logic does leave a few question marks.

Do you contribute to saving the environment by buying an electric car?
Many people would argue that the negative environmental impact of producing an electric car today, heavily outweighs any positive environmental impacts from running it, compared to a traditional ICE car. Of course, the counterargument is that buying such car now will contribute to the development of the technology for the future, and that these issues can sorted out further down the road. This, however, cannot be proved or disproved without using a crystal ball.

The next question is then, whether it is in the taxpayers' joint interest to hand out money to rich people to buy specific models of exec saloons with a questionable environmental impact.

Of course, those questions don't have to bother your brother, he's getting a good deal on an interesting car, so he goes for it.

 

[The Spie]

You hit the nail on its head. That's what our politicians have understood, that if laid out correctly, people will buy electric cars and that way contribute to saving the enivroment. Not that the environment is the buyers top priority, as you are saying, but buying an electric car has other more interesting incentives, such as price (no tax here), free parking with el-point(!), drive in the bus lane and free toll-roads.

And if places that are Not-Norway had such incentives, it might be an enticing proposition. However, here in exurban Chicago, I still have to pay sales tax, delivery, etc., I don't get free parking in downtown Chicago if I was insane enough to drive there, I don't get to drive in the bus lane, and I still have to get soaked for tolls when I get on I-90 to get into town. Plus, if I did drive a Model S into Chicago, I'd have to find a charge point, because I'd never make it back if I didn't. And, given normal variance of electric charge, it'd be a 50-50 proposition that I'd make it there in the first place.

In other words, great for you, great for your brother, glad he's getting one, etc., but not great for me. I'd jump on an HCEV if everything was in place, I'd consider a range-extender if a car company that I'd like buying from put out one (and if there was a diesel-electric option), but not a BEV.

 

[haz]

Well, that logic does leave a few question marks.

Do you contribute to saving the environment by buying an electric car?
Many people would argue that the negative environmental impact of producing an electric car today, heavily outweighs any positive environmental impacts from running it, compared to a traditional ICE car. Of course, the counterargument is that buying such car now will contribute to the development of the technology for the future, and that these issues can sorted out further down the road. This, however, cannot be proved or disproved without using a crystal ball.

The next question is then, whether it is in the taxpayers' joint interest to hand out money to rich people to buy specific models of exec saloons with a questionable environmental impact.

Of course, those questions don't have to bother your brother, he's getting a good deal on an interesting car, so he goes for it.

Production of gasoline uses more energy than producing electricity, and also -Clarksons argument that the electric car polutes more than a normal car, due to how it is produced, is BS.

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And if places that are Not-Norway had such incentives, it might be an enticing proposition. However, here in exurban Chicago, I still have to pay sales tax, delivery, etc., I don't get free parking in downtown Chicago if I was insane enough to drive there, I don't get to drive in the bus lane, and I still have to get soaked for tolls when I get on I-90 to get into town. Plus, if I did drive a Model S into Chicago, I'd have to find a charge point, because I'd never make it back if I didn't. And, given normal variance of electric charge, it'd be a 50-50 proposition that I'd make it there in the first place.

In other words, great for you, great for your brother, glad he's getting one, etc., but not great for me. I'd jump on an HCEV if everything was in place, I'd consider a range-extender if a car company that I'd like buying from put out one (and if there was a diesel-electric option), but not a BEV.

Agreed.

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Not a Tesla, or an electric hater. A rationalist, who refuses to drink the stupid koolaid. It's an overpriced car with an unproven technology designed to make the people who spend their money on these cars feel better about "saving the environment," from an "evil" (the IC engine) that hasn't been proven to do squat to the environment itself.

One of many who announces the Model S as Car of the Year. http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car/1301_2013_motor_trend_car_of_the_year_tesla_model_s/viewall.html#ixzz2C3rXAn6Q

I suspect that even if every car journalist in the world would crown the Model S the Car of the Year or even the best car ever built, YOU aren't "convinced", right?

 

[The Spie]

Production of gasoline uses more energy than producing electricity, and also -Clarksons argument that the electric car polutes more than a normal car, due to how it is produced, is BS.

No, it isn't. The nickel mining alone is more devastating to the environment than ICEs. I remember when acid rain was a massive environmental issue, and it still is. Johnny Polar Bear's pushed it aside. Out of sight, out of mind.

I suspect that even if every car journalist in the world would crown the Model S the Car of the Year or even the best car ever built, YOU aren't "convinced", right?

And have you gone into the thread about that here? I cited a number of Motor Trend Cars Of The Year that proves that the Motor Trend Car Of The Year award is, quite frankly, a joke. And I'm not convinced. Besides, there's one good reason I don't want a Tesla: Elon Musk is a smug piece of shit that I want to repeatedly punch in the face. I don't feel that way about any other car executive, not even Dieter Zetsche, and he deserves a pummeling for what happened to Mopar. Of course, he and I both have cool mustaches, so he gets a pass just for that.

 

[Emarline]

Production of gasoline uses more energy than producing electricity, and also -Clarksons argument that the electric car polutes more than a normal car, due to how it is produced, is BS.

The Prius is presumably atypical in this regard, but as it is a sort of flagship "green" car, think about the way it's produced. Nickel is mined somewhere in Africa (where the byproducts do terrible terrible things), then shipped to Canada (?) to be transformed into batteries, then everything's gotta be shipped to Japan so the car can be put together, and then the finished product is shipped 'round the world. Whatever fuel or pollution the car might save in its lifetime can hardly offset the externalities of its production. I don't know if the Prius is still only made in Toyota's Japan factories, but even the years where it was have presumably done untold things to the atmosphere's CO2 levels.

TL;DR: Electric (and hybrid) cars are nice in theory, but there's still a bunch of shit produced by making them and then making the electricity. Not to mention if someone buys an e-car to replace their 10-year-old car, they're taking responsibility for a load more CO2 etc created by the production of the new car than would have been output by their old "gas guzzler".

 

[haz]

No, it isn't. The nickel mining alone is more devastating to the environment than ICEs. I remember when acid rain was a massive environmental issue, and it still is. Johnny Polar Bear's pushed it aside. Out of sight, out of mind.



And have you gone into the thread about that here? I cited a number of Motor Trend Cars Of The Year that proves that the Motor Trend Car Of The Year award is, quite frankly, a joke. And I'm not convinced. Besides, there's one good reason I don't want a Tesla: Elon Musk is a smug piece of shit that I want to repeatedly punch in the face. I don't feel that way about any other car executive, not even Dieter Zetsche, and he deserves a pummeling for what happened to Mopar. Of course, he and I both have cool mustaches, so he gets a pass just for that.

1. An electric cars life included all of its el power, polutes the enviroment less than a nat comb car. Agree? Of course you do.

2. Ok, forget Motor Trend, you obviosuly don't like them, so them giving the Models S an award does not count to you. Fine.. What about all of the other Motor publications that already gave the Model S the car of the year award? You don't like them either, so the awards don't "matter"?

3. Personal issues with Elon Musk .. not worth commenting, good luck mate..

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The Prius is presumably atypical in this regard, but as it is a sort of flagship "green" car, think about the way it's produced. Nickel is mined somewhere in Africa (where the byproducts do terrible terrible things), then shipped to Canada (?) to be transformed into batteries, then everything's gotta be shipped to Japan so the car can be put together, and then the finished product is shipped 'round the world. Whatever fuel or pollution the car might save in its lifetime can hardly offset the externalities of its production. I don't know if the Prius is still only made in Toyota's Japan factories, but even the years where it was have presumably done untold things to the atmosphere's CO2 levels.

TL;DR: Electric (and hybrid) cars are nice in theory, but there's still a bunch of shit produced by making them and then making the electricity. Not to mention if someone buys an e-car to replace their 10-year-old car, they're taking responsibility for a load more CO2 etc created by the production of the new car than would have been output by their old "gas guzzler".

WOW! A real eye-opener, you really did your homework - didn't you?! OOps.. no you didn't. And do not swallow all of JCs "facts", I got a little tip for you: he does it to sell his show, it's his humor, that's how he works. He has a personal agenda towards the Prius.
So, if you want to discuss "green cars", think a little a head, think about the whole picture, what about how much one car polutes in its lifetime. What's worse, an el car or and natural comb car?

 

[The Spie]

1. An electric cars life included all of its el power, polutes the enviroment less than a nat comb car. Agree? Of course you do.

No, I don't, since manufacture is included as part of the lifespan. The manufacturing process of the batteries comprises a high level of environmental damage from mining and refining. The shipping of battery components isn't done by wind-powered catamarans; it's done with diesel-powered cargo vessels. In the Land of Nor, you get most of your power from hydro and geothermal; in the US, we get it from coal, with some nuclear (wind farms and solar haven't made a major dent in this yet). That jacks up the environmental damage further. And those batteries aren't particularly safe to dispose of when their lifespan ends, which it will, quicker than you believe.

Keep believing that your brother's magical Tesla was created from the breath of fairies and unicorn farts.

2. Ok, forget Motor Trend, you obviosuly don't like them, so them giving the Models S an award does not count to you. Fine.. What about all of the other Motor publications that already gave the Model S the car of the year award? You don't like them either, so the awards don't "matter"?

Not to me. They haven't impacted my buying decisions or my opinion about vehicles one bit. The only time I read them is while waiting in the doctor's office. As for you, I suggest you read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority#Fallacious_appeal_to_authority

3. Personal issues with Elon Musk .. not worth commenting, good luck mate.

Elon Musk is an arrogant, annoying piece of shit. I'm not the only one here who wants to punch him in the face repeatedly.

And do not swallow all of JCs "facts", I got a little tip for you: he does it to sell his show, it's his humor, that's how he works. He has a personal agenda towards the Prius.

He doesn't have a personal agenda against the Prius. He has a personal agenda against how the Prius is marketed and how it exaggerates its claims in order to appeal to the basic human instinct to make one's self appear noble and self-sacrificing in order to further one's reputation. It's a symbol to him of a giant corporation making money off people's Inner Wanker. Other large car corporations do the same thing, yet in more subtle ways (hello, Audi and BMW), so they're let off the hook. Well, by Clarkson, anyway. I'm sure that if I talked to him about the Evil That Is BMW, he'd take it in, see a 1M, go "Ooooh, shiny!", and proceed to ignore me.

So, if you want to discuss "green cars", think a little a head, think about the whole picture, what about how much one car polutes in its lifetime. What's worse, an el car or and natural comb car?

Include the manufacturing process, have a good think, then come back here and tell us your conclusions. And back them up with figures, because there are a lot of figures out there that come to the conclusion that BEVs aren't as green as you think.

 

[haz]

Math is easy.

Many argue that the environmental aspect of electric cars is that they pollute more in production than the one saving the environment. Plus, if all switch to electric cars, then the power network would bursts and require massive amounts of additional electricity production. (This is getting old, by the way).

What is interesting to see is that the electricity required to make 1 liter gasoline at the refinery, an electric car can drive 15 kilometers.

It will servce the community that the gasoline production is nearly dropped and the electricity is moved directly into electric cars. Suddenly there is no large amount of power needed extra, and all of the social disadvantages of extracting oil and distribution of the finished fuel, is avoided. OF course, it is utopia for all cars to be electric, but I don't understand how some can argue against enviroment saving measures like these.

BY the way, it is possible to discuss without that lip of yours:

Keep believing that your brother's magical Tesla was created from the breath of fairies and unicorn farts.

Your signature says that you are alomst 50 years old, I don't believe you. And before you think about throwing that argument in return, there's a difference between being rude og personal, and being sarcastic

 

[chaos386]

No, it isn't. The nickel mining alone is more devastating to the environment than ICEs. I remember when acid rain was a massive environmental issue, and it still is. Johnny Polar Bear's pushed it aside. Out of sight, out of mind.

The Tesla Model S uses lithium-ion batteries, not nickel-metal hydride ones. There is no nickel mining involved. Also, you're grossly exaggerating how much fuel a cargo ship uses. I'll use an oil tanker as an example, since I have numbers for that: the cost of transporting crude oil across the world in an oil tanker only accounts for 2-3 US cents per gallon of the final cost, and if you assume that all of that goes into fueling the tanker, that works out to about 3 US gallons of fuel used for every metric tonne that's transported. That's about what you should expect, because think about it: if it took gobs of fuel to transport stuff around the world via ship, how could stuff made in China possible be sold at your corner shop for $1?

But enough about the environment. This is a car forum, why aren't we discussing performance? The Model S is faster than an M5 in a straight line, and is the same price before any government incentives are taken into account. But what about the handling? I've heard it's "pretty good" in a couple reviews, but have there been any head-to-head comparisons on a track?

 

[haz]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to chaos386 again.

I will test one, because we have an order in for one, within a few weeks. Maybe I'll even make a short review and youtube-it?

 

[marcos_eirik]

I will test one, because we have an order in for one, within a few weeks. Maybe I'll even make a short review and youtube-it?

Do that... Where do they have their showroom in Oslo? Is it the same one as the one with the Fisker Karma on Tjuvholmen?

 

[jsausley]

Glorified Leaf I wasn't really aware of the level of our little discussion before reading that.

Listen, due to the previously explained tax rules, this Model S fully spec'ed will cost the same as a medium Skoda. OK?
One can also use the bus lane. OK?

I think that even in 20 years time and most electric carproducers have taken over huge market shares and the product owners are happy as hell, there will still be a small circles of ignorant denyers who just don't want to "get it".

First, there's no Skoda in the US so I'm not aware of their costs. But the Tesla (the cheapest one, which is not competitive with other cars on the market) is $50,000 which is $20,000 more than what you'd pay for a highline car from VW or an entry level Audi, BMW or other "highline" manufacturer. That's after the $7,500 tax break.

Second, there is no "bus lane" in the US similar to what you see in Europe. Perhaps in CA you can use HOV lanes - I don't live there so I don't know - but, anyone can use an HOV lane with two people in the car. Additionally, in my part of the country there is one public charging station in a 250 mile radius. We are not EV friendly. We rarely see them at all. I see a Volt once in a while - but they have gasoline engines as well. I have NEVER seen a Leaf on the road in NC.

Finally, all that you hear about EV taking over the market is just projection and guessing from "experts." Once people learn about all the problems that come with an EV, no one wants them here (outside of California, perhaps). I'm sure there will be many EVs on the road in 20-30 years but for the foreseeable future they won't be gaining much of the market, especially as GDI and diesels become more commonplace.

The only reason to buy an EV is to reduce consumption costs and if you're going to spend as much on them as these cars cost, you've got plenty of money anyway (also: even the Leaf and Volt are expensive at over $35,000 for the Leaf and over $40,000 for the Volt). $50,000 is a LOT for a car. People who are actually legitimately concerned about fuel prices don't spend $50,000 on a car. If fuel was $8.00/gallon here like it is in Europe, maybe. But prices are actually going down. You can buy regular gas here for $3.10/gallon right now.

 

[GRtak]

I don't care about the environment, but I do like electric cars and would have one if/when I can get one priced in a way that will allow it to cost the same or less long(or more likely medium knowing me) term. It can be battery, hydrogen, series hybrid, whatever. I also want a Camaro, Raptor, and an Aventador, because all can be good and fun despite other people forming at the mouth over the power source.

Why don't you care about the environment? You do live in it and are affected by the changes happening to it.

Please outline what statement I made that is factually incorrect, then.

It is not worth my time.

 

[The Spie]

Math is easy.

For me it is. For you, though? You jump through so many hoops it's ludicrous.

Many argue that the environmental aspect of electric cars is that they pollute more in production than the one saving the environment. Plus, if all switch to electric cars, then the power network would bursts and require massive amounts of additional electricity production. (This is getting old, by the way).

Old, but true and true. You're behaving just like a certain German: you believe that conditions in Norway apply throughout the world. There are a whole bunch of people on here who can explain that urban power grids in the US are old and overtaxed to begin with. Charging of mass quantities of BEVs really would overload the system.

What is interesting to see is that the electricity required to make 1 liter gasoline at the refinery, an electric car can drive 15 kilometers.

And m'Fit can do 9km on one liter of gasoline. And I don't have to wait hours for it to charge.

It will servce the community that the gasoline production is nearly dropped and the electricity is moved directly into electric cars.

And how are you certain that this is what the community wants? Given sales figures of BEVs in the US, it isn't what the vast majority of this 310-million-strong community wants. Why? It doesn't fit out needs.

Suddenly there is no large amount of power needed extra, and all of the social disadvantages of extracting oil and distribution of the finished fuel, is avoided.

Amazing you'd say that in a country whose economy is as heavily tied to the petroleum industry as ours is.

OF course, it is utopia for all cars to be electric, but I don't understand how some can argue against enviroment saving measures like these.

I could. You know why? I don't care. I'm going to be dead before envirogeddon happens, and whatever happens after that is totally irrelevant to me.

BY the way, it is possible to discuss without that lip of yours:

No, it isn't. I'm a sociopathic asshole.

Your signature says that you are alomst 50 years old,

Two years, seven days to go, to be exact.

I don't believe you.

Care to see a copy of a certified birth certificate?

And before you think about throwing that argument in return, there's a difference between being rude og personal, and being sarcastic

I know. I'm both.

 

[haz]

First, there's no Skoda in the US so I'm not aware of their costs. But the Tesla (the cheapest one, which is not competitive with other cars on the market) is $50,000 which is $20,000 more than what you'd pay for a highline car from VW or an entry level Audi, BMW or other "highline" manufacturer. That's after the $7,500 tax break.

Second, there is no "bus lane" in the US similar to what you see in Europe. Perhaps in CA you can use HOV lanes - I don't live there so I don't know - but, anyone can use an HOV lane with two people in the car. Additionally, in my part of the country there is one public charging station in a 250 mile radius. We are not EV friendly. We rarely see them at all. I see a Volt once in a while - but they have gasoline engines as well. I have NEVER seen a Leaf on the road in NC.

Listen, I hear you, but I think you are missing my point: I'm only arguing as to why this is a great buy for a car buyer here. OK? I didn't say "this is the best car for everyone everywhere".

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For me it is. For you, though? You jump through so many hoops it's ludicrous.



Old, but true and true. You're behaving just like a certain German: you believe that conditions in Norway apply throughout the world. There are a whole bunch of people on here who can explain that urban power grids in the US are old and overtaxed to begin with. Charging of mass quantities of BEVs really would overload the system.



And m'Fit can do 9km on one liter of gasoline. And I don't have to wait hours for it to charge.



And how are you certain that this is what the community wants? Given sales figures of BEVs in the US, it isn't what the vast majority of this 310-million-strong community wants. Why? It doesn't fit out needs.



Amazing you'd say that in a country whose economy is as heavily tied to the petroleum industry as ours is.



I could. You know why? I don't care. I'm going to be dead before envirogeddon happens, and whatever happens after that is totally irrelevant to me.



No, it isn't. I'm a sociopathic asshole.



Two years, seven days to go, to be exact.



Care to see a copy of a certified birth certificate?



I know. I'm both.

You are 10, ok 11 -at max. Or, you are a troll.

And you do car about the enviroment, you are alive and breathing, hence you care. If you are as old as you say, I hope you never reproduced, I laughed so hard when I read this I don't care. I'm going to be dead before envirogeddon happens, and whatever happens after that is totally irrelevant to me.

Aaaaaaaanyways.. I mentioned my brothers order for a Tesla Model S because I was excited for him getting a great car for our roads and laws, not because I think that Tesla would save the world. I just got an email saying we are getting a testdrive soon. Looking forward to that!

 

[The Spie]

You are 10, ok 11 -at max. Or, you are a troll.

We've already discussed that in another thread. The answer is: neither.

And you do car about the enviroment,

No, I leave the off-roading to Io. He's got the machine for it.

you are alive and breathing, hence you care.

There's no logic in that statement. Please explain this in detail.

If you are as old as you say, I hope you never reproduced,

Made a conscious decision not to a long time ago. I don't like children, whether they're mine or yours.

Aaaaaaaanyways.. I mentioned my brothers order for a Tesla Model S because I was excited for him getting a great car for our roads and laws, not because I think that Tesla would save the world.

Here's where you went wrong with that:

1) You necro'ed the thread to do that. Waiting until your brother actually got it, then putting up a thread in PMC with proof pics is better form.
2) You assumed we gave a shit.
3) All you've done is prattle on about how it's great for the environment.
4) If you'd stuck with the fact that your politicians are green-oriented and that your brother is taking advantage of their naivete in getting around prohibitive tax laws in order to buy a fast sports car, we'd have cheered him. Most of us may hate cars that are marketed to the greenies, but we hate politicians and taxes even more.

 

[haz]

Man you got some issues don't you