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    Originally posted by narf View Post
    So... two cars that both massively outsell the 500L in the US are worse? *gasp* But you 'Muricans buy them in significant numbers...
    Both the Sparc (yes, I am playing with the spelling) and the Chinese Micra are also half the price or less.

    You tend to expect a bit more from a machine that costs $27K than you do from something that goes on sale every month or so for $11K or less. Or, in the case of the Sparkkk, gets dumped in buy-one-get-one-free deals.
    Last edited by Spectre; March 26th, 2015, 1:32 AM.

    Comment


      Originally posted by narf View Post
      So... two cars that both massively outsell the 500L in the US are worse? *gasp* But you 'Muricans buy them in significant numbers...
      See, that doesn't seem weird to me because:

      1] Chevrolet and Nissan both have much larger dealer networks. FIAT concentrates mostly in cities. We have only one FIAT dealer in this entire region, and countless Chevy/Nissan ones; many people won't bother traveling out of their way to a FIAT dealer if there's local dealers with acceptable cars.
      2] The 500L isn't "cheap". Yes, it's no BMW, but it starts at just a hair under $20k when the Spark and Versa flirt with near-$10k prices depending on incentives and aren't much more expensive even if there's no deals. I rarely see 500Ls but am inundated in Versas and even more Sparks, almost all of which are the lower cheaper trims the FIAT simply can't compete with on price.

      E: ninja'd
      2013 Dodge Dart 1.4T Limited 6spd First car! 12/2012 -
      2013 FIAT 500 Pop Second/Girlfriend's Car! 03/2014 -
      2003 Ford Ranger XLT Supercab 10/2016 -

      Comment


        Even the base 500L starts off at pretty much $20K; this wasn't a base 500L (because not even rental fleets will buy those) and it came well loaded - nav, backup cam, satradio, etc., etc. Even assuming it was a 500L Easy, the thing is still twice the price of a Micra Versa. It's marketed as a "premium" small car here and is not cheap at all.

        Half the price will excuse a lot of sins. To say nothing of the buy-one-get-one-free Spork.

        To frame it in more Euro-understandable terms - for the same $24-27K you'd pay for a 500L like the one I drove today you can get this with corresponding options:



        The 1.8T powered 2015 Jetta Sportwagen starts at $21,395.

        Comment


          You're using price to justify buying crap, but bash Italians for buying a 500l instead of the Golf Variant you pictured? A 500l starts at under 16k, while a poverty-spec Variant starts at under 20k... No, not a 1.8T either, the equivalentish 150hp1.4TSI (20hp down) starts at almost 26k.
          Last edited by narf; March 26th, 2015, 2:38 AM.
          Octavia
          Fabia
          Beetle

          Comment


            Originally posted by narf View Post
            You're using price to justify buying crap, but bash Italians for buying a 500l instead of the Golf Variant you pictured? A 500l starts at under 16k, while a poverty-spec Variant starts at under 20k... No, not a 1.8T either, the equivalentish 150hp1.4TSI (20hp down) starts at almost 26k.
            I'm not the one justifying buying crap, just describing how the market works here. Value for money is king. And, as you will soon see in the review, even if the 500L were to be at the same price as a Chevy Splort, it'd still be a bad decision to buy one.
            Last edited by Spectre; March 26th, 2015, 2:55 AM.

            Comment


              Spectre: of any new car available in the US, NOT a pickup truck or utility van-type vehicle (I suppose SUVs could count, but only as long as it's what most consumers would consider to be a "regular" passenger vehicle, and not a converted utility vehicle like a Transit, or something), gun to your head, what new car would you buy (or if it helps to think about it another way, what 2015 model would you most likely buy as a used car in a few years)? Let's say...one at $30k and one at $60k budget?
              Last edited by NecroJoe; March 26th, 2015, 3:08 AM.
              There is no such thing as a stupid question.* *but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.

              Comment


                Originally posted by NecroJoe View Post
                Spectre: of any new car available in the US, NOT a pickup truck or utility van-type vehicle (I suppose SUVs could count, but only as long as it's what most consumers would consider to be a "regular" passenger vehicle, and not a converted utility vehicle like a Transit, or something), gun to your head, what new car would you buy (or if it helps to think about it another way, what 2015 model would you most likely buy as a used car in a few years)? Let's say...one at $30k and one at $60k budget?
                Do you want me to regard it purely in terms of MSRP, or in terms of what it could be had for with incentives and such?

                Comment


                  MSRP, I think...unless there's a silver bullet that would bring your actual choice withing range.
                  There is no such thing as a stupid question.* *but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.

                  Comment


                    Assuming hard upper limits-

                    30K: 2015 Hyundai Genesis V6 sedan ($26,750), 2015 Mustang V6 Fastback ($25,300) or if I wanted to do tinkering the EcoBoost Premium Fastback ($29,300). Normally one or more Infinitis would also be on this list, but I refuse to support their Qidiotnumberingscheme. 2015 Nissan 370Z ($29,990) can stand in for them currently.

                    60K: Upoptioned/upengined versions of prior list, 2015 Mustang Shelby GT500 ($55,110), the only thing GM makes now that I'd buy - the 2015 Vette (at $55,000), 2015 Ultima GTR (~$58K), 2015 Caterham Seven 480 ($52,900), perhaps a leftover 2014 Honda Ridgeline ($35,478)... because it would come with a 2015 CBR1000RR ($13,999) in the back of the converted Accord. Most of the 60K-ish sedans that I'd actually put down my own money on aside from the Genesis are on the wrong side of 60K.

                    Unfortunately, the first Mercedes I'd buy comes in at $119,900.

                    This list is not exhaustive, but just what was floating around on my mental list. Please note there are no current Jaguars on this list.
                    Last edited by Spectre; March 26th, 2015, 3:43 AM.

                    Comment


                      I just had this discussion at work and came up with a near duplicate of Spectres list. Except I forgot about the Genesis.
                      Oh hai guys. This is a signature.

                      Comment


                        No love for the Mercedes E350?

                        <Ice> Oh, you're the kiddy anime guy.
                        "The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were."
                        John F. Kennedy

                        Comment


                          For the 30k, Base model Ford Flex or find last years model on the lot and get a trim level up from base. 60k range, Chevy SS, then take the left over money and give it to John Hennessey so to make faster.
                          1993 Ford F-150 Flareside - July 2010 - August 2013
                          2004 Ford Mustang - September 2013 - Present
                          1987 Mercury Colony Park GS - August 2015 - Present
                          2003 EZGO TXT - March 2015 - Present (it's road legal!)


                          Originally posted by narf
                          Did I mention it burps and farts like a Roman orgy?
                          Originally posted by Redliner
                          Wankel is better because BRAP
                          Originally posted by prizrak
                          The difference between a manually shifted auto and a proper manual is about the same as masturbation and sex.

                          Comment


                            Thanks for humoring my inquiry.

                            I was dead-on with the Genesis, Mustangs, and Infiniti. Didn't think of the Z.

                            Not gonna lie, the Ridgeline was a suprise.
                            There is no such thing as a stupid question.* *but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by 93Flareside View Post
                              Base model Ford Flex. 60k range, Chevy SS, then take the left over money and give it to John Hennessey so to make fasterto make the money disappear with nothing to show for it other than a bunch of parts missing from my car because Hennessey sold them.
                              FTFY.



                              You don't live in Texas, so Hennessey will cheerfully screw you as siccing the Texas authorities on him would be a problem for you. Showing up with an angry mob of Texans with guns to get satisfaction would not be an option for you either. So he doesn't care.

                              The Flex is fine as far as it goes, but the problem with it for me is that the Genesis sedan is just a much better deal unless you need the cargo capacity of a wagon and are willing to sacrifice proper wheel drive/proper drive balance.

                              The SS isn't that impressive for me. It looks okay, but then you start noticing that things like the door solidity, interior quality and everything else is not what you'd expect in a $45K car. It's not what you'd expect in anything costing $30001 or more, it's that bad.

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              Originally posted by NecroJoe View Post
                              Thanks for humoring my inquiry.

                              I was dead-on with the Genesis, Mustangs, and Infiniti. Didn't think of the Z.

                              Not gonna lie, the Ridgeline was a suprise.
                              What, the Ultima and the Caterham weren't a surprise?

                              Comment


                                So, because I don't live in Texas, i would be taken advantage of?
                                1993 Ford F-150 Flareside - July 2010 - August 2013
                                2004 Ford Mustang - September 2013 - Present
                                1987 Mercury Colony Park GS - August 2015 - Present
                                2003 EZGO TXT - March 2015 - Present (it's road legal!)


                                Originally posted by narf
                                Did I mention it burps and farts like a Roman orgy?
                                Originally posted by Redliner
                                Wankel is better because BRAP
                                Originally posted by prizrak
                                The difference between a manually shifted auto and a proper manual is about the same as masturbation and sex.

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by gaasc View Post
                                  No love for the Mercedes E350?
                                  For $52,300, I get a 302hp V6 powered Merc that's worse in most every measurable way than a $30K, 311hp Genesis sedan. Including 0-60 and quarter mile, interior room, cargo space, braking, build quality, warranty, fuel expense, visibility, maintenance cost, serviceability... Hm, how about no.

                                  - - - Updated - - -

                                  Originally posted by 93Flareside View Post
                                  So, because I don't live in Texas, i would be taken advantage of?
                                  The chances are higher, yes. I don't remember hearing more than a couple of stories of Hennessey seriously screwing over anyone who lives here, but there's TONS of stories and documentation about what he's done with out of staters' money and vehicles.

                                  More to the point, I've seen some of Hennessey's products. Let's just say that I've performed better engineering and builds when I was hopped to the gills on painkillers after a motorcycle crash. And I think my cat could possibly weld better than some of the welding abortions I've seen on his Vipers (a description shared with some West Coast Choppers production crap). I'll just leave it there.
                                  Last edited by Spectre; March 26th, 2015, 4:10 AM.

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by Spectre View Post
                                    What, the Ultima and the Caterham weren't a surprise?
                                    Honestly? Less so than the Ridgeline.
                                    Last edited by NecroJoe; March 26th, 2015, 4:08 AM.
                                    There is no such thing as a stupid question.* *but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by NecroJoe View Post
                                      Honestly? Less so than the Ridgeline.
                                      The only reason the 'Accord With A Bed' Ridgeline is on there is because this would come with it:


                                      Which should make it somewhat less surprising.

                                      Comment


                                        The Ridgeline was quite a surprise, I would have expected a real truck like an F150.
                                        Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by ScarFace88 View Post
                                          The Ridgeline was quite a surprise, I would have expected a real truck like an F150.
                                          He said no trucks or truck based SUVs, otherwise that would have been a somewhat different list.

                                          The Ridgeline, since it's really an Accord with a bed, does not qualify as a real truck and therefore could be used.

                                          Comment

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