Random Thoughts... [Automotive Edition]

[Blind_Io]

Isn't the point of a semi truck long range? Just how are they going to justify delays if they have to stop for hours every hundred miles?

For Over-The-Road (OTR) hauls, that is true. There are a lot of smaller "day cab" trucks that do local hauling, such as container transport in and around ports and rail heads, construction work, and local deliveries from warehouses. I know that in my area the air is terrible, and more than 60% of the pollution is from transportation. If we could do all our short haul trucks with electric power instead of diesel, our air would be much, much better.

 

[prizrak]

For Over-The-Road (OTR) hauls, that is true. There are a lot of smaller "day cab" trucks that do local hauling, such as container transport in and around ports and rail heads, construction work, and local deliveries from warehouses. I know that in my area the air is terrible, and more than 60% of the pollution is from transportation. If we could do all our short haul trucks with electric power instead of diesel, our air would be much, much better.

Run em on H.

 

[Blind_Io]

Hydrogen requires electricity be used to split water into H2 and O2, hydrogen storage and transportation, and high pressure hydrogen tanks on the vehicle. Electric vehicles can just run off the electricity used in Step 1 of hydrogen systems, and charging stations can easily be installed at any of the existing truck depots, which already have a ton of power going into them for compressors, tools, lighting, etc.

 

[prizrak]

Hydrogen requires electricity be used to split water into H2 and O2, hydrogen storage and transportation, and high pressure hydrogen tanks on the vehicle. Electric vehicles can just run off the electricity used in Step 1 of hydrogen systems, and charging stations can easily be installed at any of the existing truck depots, which already have a ton of power going into them for compressors, tools, lighting, etc.

All true however they are fast to refuel and weigh much less.

 

[Labcoatguy]

All true however they are fast to refuel and weigh much less.

And are less developed (specifically the storage bit) at price points that are market-ready.

 

[Spectre]

Hydrogen requires electricity be used to split water into H2 and O2, hydrogen storage and transportation, and high pressure hydrogen tanks on the vehicle. Electric vehicles can just run off the electricity used in Step 1 of hydrogen systems, and charging stations can easily be installed at any of the existing truck depots, which already have a ton of power going into them for compressors, tools, lighting, etc.

If past electric buses are any example, you won't be seeing any team-driven battery-powered semis or even day cabs in places that have round the clock utilization. They basically spend about the same amount of time charging as they do driving, so for 12 hours of operation, you're looking at about 12 hours of charging.

One other thing about hydrogen - you can convert internal combustion engines to run on it, so you don't have to buy an all new fleet. Kind of a big concern if you don't want to waste money or if you don't like seeing thousands of tons of vehicles sent to the junkyard for no good reason.

 

[prizrak]

And are less developed (specifically the storage bit) at price points that are market-ready.

By that logic lets keep burning diesel

 

[Blind_Io]

Team driving is mostly for OTR trucks, I see the advantage of an electric tractor in the daycab segment. OTR, especially teams, will still need fast refueling and nearly 100% duty cycle for the truck and driver team; that's just not something EVs can do right now. Maybe down the road with swappable batter packs, but not today. A diesel electric hybrid system would make a lot more sense for OTR trucking, it could allow for less fuel consumption and smaller diesels, all that weight on the downhill would make a ton of power for recharging batteries that could then be used to assist the uphill hauls and reduce fuel consumption. It would be especially useful in the mountainous regions, but in town they could use start-stop technology to shut down the diesel as much as possible, or even use a plug-in hybrid model so the truck could charge while sitting at the loading bays, further reducing pollution, noise, and vibration.

 

[prizrak]

I was thinking a serial diesel hybrid but I'm not sure of the space requirements. I know a bunch of NYC buses run like that but they basically take up all of the roof with batteries. I can see something like that being useful for in-town deliveries, I seen a fully electric box truck here once. Don't think I ever seen hybrids though. Alternative of course would be something like CNG, which is much less polluting than diesel.

 

[Labcoatguy]

By that logic lets keep burning diesel

Or go electric, like these guys are. Or put some R&D into commercializing hydrogen rather than try to push it when it's not ready.

 

[Blind_Io]

They already have some CNG buses, I'm sure it would be pretty easy to build a CNG hybrid truck. Instead of putting the batteries on the roof, just make a big pack that sits behind the cab of the truck but ahead of the trailer. CNG tanks can be under the chassis where regular fuel tanks go and the engine goes up front. Packaging is much less of a worry on industrial/utility vehicles.

 

[NooDle]

Batteries on the roof? Doesnt that make the whole car extremely top heavy? I know it's a bus do handling is a non issue, but tipping over is?

 

[prizrak]

Or go electric, like these guys are. Or put some R&D into commercializing hydrogen rather than try to push it when it's not ready.

That argument doesn?t hold any water. If you argue that we should use an inferior solution due to it being more established then diesel wins by default.

 

[prizrak]

They already have some CNG buses, I'm sure it would be pretty easy to build a CNG hybrid truck. Instead of putting the batteries on the roof, just make a big pack that sits behind the cab of the truck but ahead of the trailer. CNG tanks can be under the chassis where regular fuel tanks go and the engine goes up front. Packaging is much less of a worry on industrial/utility vehicles.

Electric truck I saw here had batteries on the bottom under the payload

 

[prizrak]

Batteries on the roof? Doesnt that make the whole car extremely top heavy? I know it's a bus do handling is a non issue, but tipping over is?

Haven?t seen one tip over yet

 

[Labcoatguy]

That argument doesn?t hold any water. If you argue that we should use an inferior solution due to it being more established then diesel wins by default.

Let's try to converse with more nuance than your average Reddit or Twitter flamewar. Just because an idealized hydrogen ecosystem might be a better solution at some point, doesn't mean we should give up on a useful intermediate technology that's further ahead on a commercial basis right now. If GM or Mercedes or any of the many other groups who've attempted to commercialize hydrogen fuel cells were to announce a viable competitor to battery electricity vehicles, you wouldn't see me try to push an inferior battery alternative, but as we're not there yet, too bad.

 

[gaasc]

One other thing about hydrogen - you can convert internal combustion engines to run on it, so you don't have to buy an all new fleet.

Wait What?

 

[prizrak]

Let's try to converse with more nuance than your average Reddit or Twitter flamewar.

Where is the fun in that?

Just because an idealized hydrogen ecosystem might be a better solution at some point, doesn't mean we should give up on a useful intermediate technology that's further ahead on a commercial basis right now. If GM or Mercedes or any of the many other groups who've attempted to commercialize hydrogen fuel cells were to announce a viable competitor to battery electricity vehicles, you wouldn't see me try to push an inferior battery alternative, but as we're not there yet, too bad.

I'm contesting that BEV is a useful intermediate technology in the first place, I simply don't see what the value for moving cargo (personal transport is different). I don't see the tradeoffs as being worth it, you are losing cargo capacity OR decreasing range and increasing refueling times*. If that's not enough you are also talking about replacing the entire fleet with a solution that may not even be around in the next 10-20 years.

*Doesn't matter if you are parking it overnight and it has enough range for the entire workday obviously.

On a separate note, commercial viability of any technology is highly dependent on the demand for said technology, I was recently reading about a company that builds H fuel stations in CA and how they have had to scale up because of unforeseen demand. Currently no one is building HFCEV trucks so of course there isn't going to be any demand for them

- - - Updated - - -

Wait What?

Hydrogen is combustible, an ICE doesn't care what is being combusted as long as the combustion is done in a way that it can work with. BMW built a 7 series like that in early 00s it could run on either gasoline or hydrogen - http://www.hydrogen-motors.com/bmw-750hl.html of course it had terrible range on hydrogen...

 

[Blind_Io]

Wait What?

It is possible. You can convert a gasoline motor to run on liquid natural gas, the same is true for liquid hydrogen. The problem comes with hydrogen being a tiny little molecule. It pretty easily escapes from seals, gaskets, and even right through the material of some hoses that are a barrier for larger, more complex hydrocarbons.

 

[GRtak]

Isn't the point of a semi truck long range? Just how are they going to justify delays if they have to stop for hours every hundred miles?

The best use for an EV semi in my opinion is for local deliveries. With a brake regeneration system, it will have better range than if used on a straight expressway run.

If past electric buses are any example, you won't be seeing any team-driven battery-powered semis or even day cabs in places that have round the clock utilization. They basically spend about the same amount of time charging as they do driving, so for 12 hours of operation, you're looking at about 12 hours of charging.

One other thing about hydrogen - you can convert internal combustion engines to run on it, so you don't have to buy an all new fleet. Kind of a big concern if you don't want to waste money or if you don't like seeing thousands of tons of vehicles sent to the junkyard for no good reason.

That is about the most expensive way to run a truck there is. It would be far better to convert it to use LPG or CNG than to use hydrogen.



By the way. For those that don't know it, rockets have used a conventional internal combustion engine running on hydrogen and liquid oxygen for sometime to power a fuel pump for the main rocket engines. There is an episode of Autoline After Hours I can dig up where Jack Roush talks about his company building a new one for a newer rocket system.