Volkswagen is in trouble with just about everybody on the f'ing planet

[Spectre]

I am sure that is how it will be interpreted by some. It really is true too, so they will get bent over and cry all the way to the SCOTUS until the fine gets lowered.

I don't think the SCOTUS is going to touch this one. This one's going to be a bipartisan F**K YOU, I think. Extreme Dems will want their heads for damaging Mother Gaia while selling them merchandise promoted as 'green", extreme Republicans will want their heads in the name of fairness for all the other companies that had to comply with these directives.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not the sentiment behind the comment, it's the comment itself I find objectionable.

Well, then here's another question for you - why was it the US EPA that caught them and not the Germans' own even stricter counterpart agencies? Anyone want to bet that they *did* know and in an ADAC-Corruption moment, chose not to do anything about it?

 

[Delll]

Assuming the EPA mean VW violated this:

(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell, or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use; or

Sounds like Hemis with cylinder shutoff should be required to permanently run on 4 cylinders as well...

 

[Spectre]

Assuming the EPA mean VW violated this:

Sounds like Hemis with cylinder shutoff should be required to permanently run on 4 cylinders as well...

No, because they are certified in both modes. This was originally hashed out with the Cadillac V4-6-8 engines back in the early 80s (which actually had to be certified in all *three* modes). VW's engines were *not* certified in the non-emissions-test mode so they're in violation of a bunch of other regs.

 

[JimCorrigan]

Well, then here's another question for you - why was it the US EPA that caught them and not the Germans' own even stricter counterpart agencies? Anyone want to bet that they *did* know and in an ADAC-Corruption moment, chose not to do anything about it?

Probably because the Game Shark cheat, as you put it, was designed to circumvent the EPA test cycle, not the EU one (that we know of, so far). Not sure why ADAC or anyone else would have any reason to pick up on this.

 

[Spectre]

Probably because the Game Shark cheat, as you put it, was designed to circumvent the EPA test cycle, not the EU one (that we know of, so far). Not sure why ADAC or anyone else would have any reason to pick up on this.

Last I recall, one of the big selling points for the -09 on standards (and the Year Without A Diesel Car) was getting the standards in line with proposed (now existing) Euro regulations - Euro 5/6, I believe? So if they were cheating here in the US on standards similar to those in Europe... what do you think the chances are that they weren't cheating there, too?

 

[ScarFace88]

 

[Spectre]

Upon further reflection, the Year Without A Diesel Car (2007) is probably *why* VW decided to do this - at the time, the TDIs were their only major sellers in the US outside the Beetle, and not being able to sell any of them here probably freaked out a whole lot of people there.

- - - Updated - - -

Should also be pointed out that Mercedes *did* do it honestly and spent the large sums of money needed to comply with the laws and regs - why should they be penalized for being honest in the US market (to say nothing of other manufacturers) and VW gets to skate for years by lying?

 

[JimCorrigan]

Last I recall, one of the big selling points for the -09 on standards (and the Year Without A Diesel Car) was getting the standards in line with proposed (now existing) Euro regulations - Euro 5/6, I believe? So if they were cheating here in the US on standards similar to those in Europe... what do you think the chances are that they weren't cheating there, too?

Except the EU standards are all about CO2 emissions, which is why most major European manufacturers, including Porsche and Ferrari, are downsizing and turbocharging. The US EPA regs focus on mpg.

 

[Spectre]

Volkswagen is in trouble with the US government

Volkswagen is in trouble with the US government

Except the EU standards are all about CO2 emissions, which is why most major European manufacturers, including Porsche and Ferrari, are downsizing and turbocharging. The US EPA regs focus on mpg.

No, that's not all the EPA focuses on. The part VW got caught out on was oxides of nitrogen - something that is pretty similar between Euro 5 and EPA Tier 2.

EPA is in charge of CAFE, yes, but their regs focus more on things like NOx and other actually immediately hazardous tailpipe emissions like CO.

 

[JimCorrigan]

No, that's not all the EPA focuses on. The part VW got caught out on was oxides of nitrogen - something that is pretty similar between Euro 5 and EPA Tier 2.

EPA is in charge of CAFE, yes, but their regs focus more on things like NOx and other actually immediately hazardous tailpipe emissions like CO.

You are correct about that, my bad.

Still, you do bring up an interesting point: does VW's Game Shark also have an EU cheat code, as well as an EPA one?

 

[narf]

Except the EU standards are all about CO2 emissions, which is why most major European manufacturers, including Porsche and Ferrari, are downsizing and turbocharging. The US EPA regs focus on mpg.

MPG and CO2 emissions are virtually the same thing. The more fuel you burn, the more CO2 you emit.
EU taxes are mostly based on CO2, EU emissions don't care about CO2 at all - there's CO, NOx, particulates, etc. in there, much like the US standards with different numbers here and there.

 

[JimCorrigan]

MPG and CO2 emissions are virtually the same thing. The more fuel you burn, the more CO2 you emit.
EU taxes are mostly based on CO2, EU emissions don't care about CO2 at all - there's CO, NOx, particulates, etc. in there, much like the US standards with different numbers here and there.

Sorry, narf, you confused me.... EU taxes are CO2 dependent, but EU emissions don't care about CO2? Don't the taxes result from EU emissions regulations?

And I disagree with your first statement. Fuel economy and CO2 emissions are not the same thing, even if they are intertwined.

 

[Spectre]

You are correct about that, my bad.

Still, you do bring up an interesting point: does VW's Game Shark also have an EU cheat code, as well as an EPA one?

If I recall correctly, VW Europe is still the only major car maker that doesn't have urea injection on most of their diesels in that market. (I haven't looked in a while, so I could be wrong.) If this is still so, I think we have the answer - it'd be *very* likely that they do.

Navistar spent over $700 MILLION on three continents to try to come up with an alternative to urea injection in diesels. They got very close with their EGR systems but still could not get it done - and this was with the looser requirements on heavy-duty diesels! But somehow VW spends nothing on an alternative to urea injection and maaaaaaaagically somehow has all their diesel engine designs meet Euro 5 and US Tier 2 without urea and without advanced EGR... yeah, I'd say there's cheat codes in use in both markets, given what we know now.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, in case it wasn't clear before - the NOx standards that VW got caught out flagrantly violating are exactly what Navistar's advanced EGR system was supposed to and what the rest of the industry's SCR/urea injection actually *did* address. VW has neither system on their cars, at least not in the US.

 

[rickhamilton620]

If I recall correctly, VW Europe is still the only major car maker that doesn't have urea injection on most of their diesels in that market. (I haven't looked in a while, so I could be wrong.) If this is still so, I think we have the answer - it'd be *very* likely that they do.

Navistar spent over $700 MILLION on three continents to try to come up with an alternative to urea injection in diesels. They got very close with their EGR systems but still could not get it done - and this was with the looser requirements on heavy-duty diesels! But somehow VW spends nothing on an alternative to urea injection and maaaaaaaagically somehow has all their diesel engine designs meet Euro 5 and US Tier 2 without urea and without advanced EGR... yeah, I'd say there's cheat codes in use in both markets, given what we know now.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, in case it wasn't clear before - the NOx standards that VW got caught out flagrantly violating are exactly what Navistar's advanced EGR system was supposed to and what the rest of the industry's SCR/urea injection actually *did* address. VW has neither system on their cars, at least not in the US.

The current gen Passat and Toureg models do use DEF, along with Golf SportWagen.

And yeah that Advanced EGR thing was a mess both in terms of reliability and actual results. School districts and contractors were/did sue them over the engines, it was that bad.

It's telling that IC isn't even bothering to offer the Navistar N9 on the CE instead continuing to offer only Cummins power...a option they brought back after the advanced EGR debacle.

Back in the 90's, most of the heavy duty truck engine makers pulled a similar move that VW did and got caught.

Which makes it even more surprising that VW thought they could get away with it.

 

[Spectre]

I type corrected - on the other hand, that leaves the rest of their TDI lineup without anything. Did the Passat and Toe-rag + JettaGolfSportwagen just get that this year?

Navistar doesn't really encourage anyone to get their own engines now, they're often just shipping Cummins IS* in Navistar chassis at this point. They do seem to realize that they burned a lot of people and they need to allow time for the anger to cool off.

I don't know why they thought they could get away with it either. Eventually *someone* was going to notice, especially with the proliferation of these mobile smog check trucks all over the country:

They don't connect to the car's computer so the car has no chance to realize the emissions are being tested. In fact, they're positioned at highway onramps and they use photo-spectrometers to analyze the exhausts of cars passing through the sensor checkpoint. No chance that the VW program could 'protect' the car from that.

 

[Jupix]

In fact, they're positioned at highway onramps and they use photo-spectrometers to analyze the exhausts of cars passing through the sensor checkpoint. No chance that the VW program could 'protect' the car from that.

Wait... are these being used against automakers or drivers who smog-test with one setup and then daily with another setup?

Honest question, I never heard of "radar detector for emissions" before.

 

[Spectre]

Wait... are these being used against automakers or drivers who smog-test with one setup and then daily with another setup?

Honest question, I never heard of "radar detector for emissions" before.

They're intended to be used to detect the latter - people who are driving with gross polluting vehicles, for whatever reason (equipment failure, deliberate tampering, changing tunes to pass emissions then changing back, etc., etc.). Should someone drive a gross-polluting vehicle past such a checkpoint, they get a summons in the mail to have their vehicle smog tested again, often at a specially designated station.

However, if you keep getting one make of new/recent car that is always displaying out-of-spec emissions every time one goes by the checkpoint and those cars test fine when they appear at the inspection station... you may begin to smell a rat.

As the EPA's been cracking down on urban and suburban pollution in the US, those trucks have been appearing with increasing frequency next to highway onramps.

 

[awdrifter]

While VW technically is violating the law, EPA is way overreaching with it's regulations. I hope VW can drag this on/bribe it's way out of this.

 

[93Flareside]

I don't. You intentionally broke the law. Deal with the consequences. No amount of money should smooth things over like it never happened. This isn't the mob.

 

[awdrifter]

They can always settle the case for much less than the initial fine. That's where campaign contributions and other forms of soft money will come into play. EPA needs to be reigned in somehow, money is usually the best way to do it, and big corporations are the only entities that can afford it. Samsung famously got caught with funds set aside specifically for bribes. I don't think they are the only multi-national conglomerate that does it, other companies are probably better at hiding the fund.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/07/business/worldbusiness/06cnd-samsung.html?_r=0