Volkswagen is in trouble with just about everybody on the f'ing planet

[Spectre]

Maybe. Either way, anyone who signed off on this needs to be going to jail; someone on another forum pointed out that this could potentially be the largest commission of fraud in automotive history - almost 500,000 counts.

 

[argatoga]

Even beating the Pinto disaster?

 

[MacGuffin]

Nah, nobody's going to jail for this. That would be ridiculous.

After all, no lives were lost, no people injured, no air bags failed or exploded, no faulty ignition locks shut down the engine in mid-drive, no unwanted acceleration, the Gulf of Mexico wasn't polluted with oil, etc.

I guess you get the point.

The real disaster here is that VW probably managed to ruin its reputation in the USA even more. "Clean Diesel" was a bad marketing idea from the beginning, even here people know that although diesels are cleaner than in say, 1990, they still aren't as clean as modern petrol engines of the same size. The reasons for buying the majority of diesels have always been monetary ones (fuel economoy and low fuel cost), that's why they're popular here. It's already been common knowledge here in Europe that diesels are still rather dirty and that ALL carmakers lie in that area - and just for the record: It was the ADAC who first pointed that out years ago. As far as I know, only the "AdBlue" technology of Mercedes produces rather clean exhaust of a diesel and I think BMW diesels are rather clean, too. But it's expensive technology and therefore not being installed in cheaper cars.

I've always been a fan of the big diesels. The 3-liter 6-cylinder diesels are fascinating engines that are on par with a V8 petrol engine, when it comes to performance but much more economical. But those 4-cylinder diesels you can get in every car here (and I mean every car), I could never really understand. Until today they haven't managed to really quiet them down or get completely rid of the rattling and the turbo lag...

 

[Spectre]

Even beating the Pinto disaster?

The Pinto wasn't fraud. Negligence, bad design, bad legal counsel, yes. Fraud, no. (The more so since there were other contemporary cars that did the exact same thing, the only difference was that those companies didn't have a breathtakingly callous memo floating around.)

And when the Pinto first shipped, Ford didn't *know* there was a problem - which is the big difference here.

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Nah, nobody's going to jail for this. That would be ridiculous.

After all, no lives were lost, no people injured, no air bags failed or exploded, no faulty ignition locks shut down the engine in mid-drive, no unwanted acceleration, the Gulf of Mexico wasn't polluted with oil, etc.

I guess you get the point.

I love how you leave out the important difference - intent and foreknowledge. VW knew, going into this, that this was wrong, that there was no chance this was legal or would work out legally. And they went ahead anyway.

The Takata air bags tested out fine when they were originally shipped, GM didn't know the ignition switches were defective when they shipped them, BP didn't think they'd have a blowout. But VW did know they were breaking the law from day one. The EPA and CARB love going after people who do this because they get a free run from the public.

People in CA (especially) go to jail for tampering with emissions equipment. People who fraudulently rig emissions tests go to jail all over the country.

Yes, there *will* be someone going to jail for this one.

 

[MacGuffin]

Nah, they'll strike some deal. VW has enough money to buy themselves out of this. I think the biggest blow for them is the image setback on the American market.

Besides, in companies as huge as VAG, where do you want to find the person responsible for this? And how do you want to prove it was criminal intent by one or more natural persons? You won't find a note or paper saying "Alright, let's cheat the Americans", signed by some VW manager. And you cannot put a legal entity into prison anyway, you can only make it pay. And that's what's going to happen. And since it's a foreign carmaker, they'll probably pay a bit more than an American carmaker would have to pay...

 

[LazarusMP]

So... Apparently VW's worldwide profit last year was approximately $12.3 Billion USD per the WSJ. If they're hit with the full fine (around $18 Billion), repair/modification costs (say $1000(?)/car at 482,000 cars = close to another $.5 Billion), who knows what in class action lawsuits, etc, etc... Whether or not anyone goes to jail, this could potentially spell the end of VW as it currently exists in the U.S. and cause them significant difficulties worldwide. I wonder if they might just decide to declare bankruptcy in the U.S. and pull out of the U.S. market rather than pay all of the fines and other costs. More likely, they'll just threaten to and the government (after certain 'campaign donations' are made) will give them a slap on the wrist rather than take the chance of it actually happening.

And, of course, we still haven't heard anything from any other countries as to whether or not VW are doing something similar there. That could be a whole bunch of new complications for VW...

 

[Spectre]

Nah, they'll strike some deal. VW has enough money to buy themselves out of this. I think the biggest blow for them is the image setback on the American market.

Besides, in companies as huge as VAG, where do you want to find the person responsible for this? And how do you want to prove it was criminal intend by one or more natural persons? You won't find a note or paper saying "Alright, let's cheat the Americans", signed by some VW manager. And you cannot put a legal entity into prison anyway.

They might come to a deal with the EPA. They won't come to a deal with CARB - those people are *absolutely* rabid about things like this.

Under US law post-Sarbannes-Oxley, yes, you CAN put directors and officers of a company in jail for the activities of the corporation. "I was only following orders" doesn't work as a defense any more, remember?

The corporation can also collect the 'death penalty' - the revocation of the company's charter and the forced dissolution of the corporation by the courts. Yes, that does mean that VWNA could be shut down and liquidated by the courts. It is rare but it has happened.

At some point, someone had to sign off on this because low-level employees aren't going to do this without someone's authorization. Someone at managerial level or higher *had* to know and there will end up being a paper trail somewhere (provided their inevitable shredding and deletion party doesn't get it). Failing that, the EPA is very good at awarding immunity to prosecutions in order to get people to roll over on their higher-ups. They'll get someone convicted and sent to jail.

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So... Apparently VW's worldwide profit last year was approximately $12.3 Billion USD per the WSJ. If they're hit with the full fine (around $18 Billion), repair/modification costs (say $1000(?)/car at 482,000 cars = close to another $.5 Billion), who knows what in class action lawsuits, etc, etc... Whether or not anyone goes to jail, this could potentially spell the end of VW as it currently exists in the U.S. and cause them significant difficulties worldwide. I wonder if they might just decide to declare bankruptcy in the U.S. and pull out of the U.S. market rather than pay all of the fines and other costs. More likely, they'll just threaten to and the government (after certain 'campaign donations' are made) will give them a slap on the wrist rather than take the chance of it actually happening.

And, of course, we still haven't heard anything from any other countries as to whether or not VW are doing something similar there. That could be a whole bunch of new complications for VW...

Bankruptcy won't save them from a judgement. They will have to pay up before they sell/pay anything else. Court judgements and fines take priority in any bankruptcy proceedings.

 

[MacGuffin]

They might come to a deal with the EPA. They won't come to a deal with CARB - those people are *absolutely* rabid about things like this.

Under US law post-Sarbannes-Oxley, yes, you CAN put directors and officers of a company in jail for the activities of the corporation. "I was only following orders" doesn't work as a defense any more, remember?

The corporation can also collect the 'death penalty' - the revocation of the company's charter and the forced dissolution of the corporation by the courts. Yes, that does mean that VWNA could be shut down and liquidated by the courts. It is rare but it has happened.

At some point, someone had to sign off on this because low-level employees aren't going to do this without someone's authorization. Someone at managerial level or higher *had* to know and there will end up being a paper trail somewhere (provided their inevitable shredding and deletion party doesn't get it). Failing that, the EPA is very good at awarding immunity to prosecutions in order to get people to roll over on their higher-ups. They'll get someone convicted and sent to jail.

How about you putting away your pitchfork and torch for the moment and wait what will happen?

And I'm willing to bet a crate of beer that it will be a PR disaster for Volkswagen USA and that a lot of money will be paid but apart from that, not much will happen. Of course you'd have to attend Ringmeet in order to pay or receive the crate of beer

 

[LazarusMP]

Bankruptcy won't save them from a judgement. They will have to pay up before they sell/pay anything else. Court judgements and fines take priority in any bankruptcy proceedings.

Definitely going to be interesting to see how the whole mess plays out. So many potential variables that could have significant effects on the automotive industry and/or the economy.

 

[argatoga]

Besides, in companies as huge as VAG, where do you want to find the person responsible for this? And how do you want to prove it was criminal intent by one or more natural persons? You won't find a note or paper saying "Alright, let's cheat the Americans", signed by some VW manager. And you cannot put a legal entity into prison anyway, you can only make it pay. And that's what's going to happen. And since it's a foreign carmaker, they'll probably pay a bit more than an American carmaker would have to pay...

VW told the EPA they cheated, we don't need to find a smoking gun memo.

As for where the idea came from, I'm guessing it was Piech. He wanted to be number one and it was VW's way of growing themselves in the US market, which was needed to meet his ridiculously large sales goal. Regardless, I wouldn't be surprised if Winterkorn throws Piech under the bus for this as a final "fuck you".

I don't see their North American operations going under either, and being such a massive company they will probably be able to strike a deal with the government. What will hit them financially will be the class action lawsuit from buyers. Again they will survive, but it will hurt them in the US market, especially as it will be picked up by the news.

Diesels weren't that big in the US, and hybrids have been taking that market; it was a dead end.

 

[93Flareside]

The executives are little hot until mein kolar.

 

[TC]

This whole mess is almost impossible to believe. Were they really so arrogant as to think they could get away with this?

 

[MacGuffin]

Volkswagen is confirming it all and Winterkorn has announced that an "external investigation" has started. It'll be really intersting to know whether it was an idea from the American branch or if it was decided in Wolfsburg. At least they do it right from the beginning and don't start denying first and then have to admit it anyway in a so-called "salami tactic". Don't know if that term is also used in the English-speaking countries but it means only admitting things slice by slice which they cannot deny anymore anyway.

Oh, and it seems like in the past Honda and Ford were accused of similar activities and they got off the hook with paying 267 million dollars (Honda) and 7.8 million dollars (Ford). They also were accused of having installed a software that recognizes official tests and manipulates the exhaust for that.

Apparently the whole affair was started by an investigation of the West Virgina institutes and with the help of the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT). Funny side note: The ICCT works together with German ADAC and they recently did a check on the test procedures of how the exhausts of cars are being tested and how realistic they are.

 

[Mitchi]

Meanwhile, in Europe still no one bats an eye because that's how a lot of manufacturers do it...




Not defending it, definitely not a good practice

 

[MacGuffin]

Meanwhile, in Europe still no one bats an eye because that's how a lot of manufacturers do it...

Really? Current screenshot, put online on a Sunday with elections in Greece:

It has to be seen how the reactions will be here. Usually our politicians react veeeeeery slooooowly to current events

 

[93Flareside]

So press events with the politicians lasts hours?

 

[argatoga]

So is this going to lead to dealer lawsuits as well?

 

[Mitchi]

Really? Current screenshot, put online on a Sunday with elections in Greece:

It has to be seen how the reactions will be here. Usually our politicians react veeeeeery slooooowly to current events

By Europe I mean that it's done in Europe the same way for ages and the EU didn't give a single fuck yet...

 

[rickhamilton620]

VW orders a "stop-sale" for all 2015 and 2016 models equipped with 2.0L diesel engines: http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-tells-dealers-to-halt-sales-of-new-tdi-cars-1731923302

EDIT: The EPA is now investigating other diesel vehicles to ensure that there's no gaming the system elsewhere.

This also stuck out:

As Automotive News notes, four-cylinder TDI models account for 20 to 25 percent of VW?s U.S. sales, so this is going to hurt.

Considering that nearly 50% of Jetta/Golf SportWagen sales have been TDI, this can have a dramatic effect on sales even within a product line.

VWOA's social media team's gonna have a fun time on monday...the comments on Facebook..not good.

 

[Spectre]

So is this going to lead to dealer lawsuits as well?

Almost certainly and for many of the same reasons as buyers will be suing.

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This whole mess is almost impossible to believe. Were they really so arrogant as to think they could get away with this?

Apparently, yes.

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Apparently the whole affair was started by an investigation of the West Virgina institutes and with the help of the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT). Funny side note: The ICCT works together with German ADAC and they recently did a check on the test procedures of how the exhausts of cars are being tested and how realistic they are.

The fact that the ICCT was finding similar discrepancies between 'as tested' and 'as observed on the road' emissions *in Europe* tends to suggest that VW's problem is worldwide - not limited to the Americas.