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An Open Response To Richard Aucock

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    #21
    Originally posted by narf View Post
    On the other hand, my car in TDI guise would only need a service (and oil change) every 50000km as opposed to 30000km in TSI guise.
    Remember, in the US VAG says the conditions are such that those extended oil change intervals are a no-go.

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      #22
      Originally posted by Spectre View Post
      Remember, in the US VAG says the conditions are such that those extended oil change intervals are a no-go.
      US VAG has no jurisdiction over my car.
      Octavia
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        #23
        Originally posted by narf View Post
        US VAG has no jurisdiction over my car.
        Topic is diesels in the US. You were apparently trying to say that the diesel would be able to go a lot longer between maintenance stops in such conditions, when VAG says otherwise about diesels in such conditions.

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          #24
          Originally posted by Spectre View Post
          Topic is diesels in the US. You were apparently trying to say that the diesel would be able to go a lot longer between maintenance stops in such conditions, when VAG says otherwise about diesels in such conditions.
          The minute I bring up a Skoda it cannot be about the US. You should know that.





          Besides, even the 10000 miles VW USA appears to mandate for its TDIs probably is much longer than most US drivers keep their oil in their car.
          Last edited by narf; January 13th, 2013, 12:43 AM.
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            #25
            Originally posted by narf View Post
            Besides, even the 10000 miles VW USA appears to mandate for its TDIs probably is much longer than most US drivers keep their oil in their car.
            Not likely - the included 'free' maintenance for them is at 10, 20 and 30K and nobody's going to be doing it more often than the 'free' intervals.

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              #26
              Originally posted by Spectre View Post
              Not likely - the included 'free' maintenance for them is at 10, 20 and 30K and nobody's going to be doing it more often than the 'free' intervals.
              Apparently that's more than twice the distance the average US driver keeps their oil in the car. Apparently, many many people are "going to be doing it more often".
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                #27
                That study you cite is more than half a decade old (published 2007, data in study much older). Much of the vehicle population has turned over since then and the majority of those cars have the new lower weight oils with extended service intervals. Most cars on the market now have 10K service intervals. Assuming the original post's referenced 'why don't you buy diesels' point of new cars, no, that means most people buying cars today will probably have the oil in their cars about 10K or however much longer or shorter the oil life indicator system (if so equipped) gives them.

                In fact, such things are so engrained in the US car market now, a lot of younger buyers here don't know there even IS a set interval and they just take the thing in when it tells them to. This has lead to a number of visible vehicle kills from people buying older vehicles and not knowing there's no idiot light telling you to get the oil changed. Which leads to crap like this:
                Last edited by Spectre; January 13th, 2013, 9:02 AM.

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                  #28
                  Originally posted by Spectre View Post
                  That study you cite is more than half a decade old (published 2007, data in study much older). Much of the vehicle population has turned over since then and the majority of those cars have the new lower weight oils with extended service intervals. Most cars on the market now have 10K service intervals.
                  Do you have a newer study showing that the slow-changing US car population has in fact more than doubled their habitual change intervals?

                  This is just anecdotal, but shows an example of "US driver reads 10k oil change interval, does 5-7.5k instead". Somehow Ford appears to recommend 7.5k anyway
                  Last edited by narf; January 13th, 2013, 9:20 AM.
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                    #29
                    Originally posted by narf View Post
                    Do you have a newer study showing that the slow-changing US car population has in fact more than doubled their habitual change intervals?
                    As of last year, the average vehicle age in the US was 10.8 years. It was about 9 at the time the study you reference was completed.

                    The extended oil drain intervals came in in 2001 with the API SL specification. Cars of that year and newer mostly have the 10K oil change interval here in the US.

                    2013 - 2001 = 12 years. 12 years > average age of US vehicle fleet. Means the average car in the US is very likely to have an extended oil drain interval.

                    Further, if that weren't enough, recent studies show that at least 40% of people are putting off oil changes and exceeding the specified oil drain interval. http://nj1015.com/drivers-putting-of...y-shows-audio/
                    Last edited by Spectre; January 13th, 2013, 9:24 AM.

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                      #30
                      Originally posted by Spectre View Post
                      As of last year, the average vehicle age in the US was 10.8 years. It was about 9 at the time the study you reference was completed.

                      The extended oil drain intervals came in in 2001 with the API SL specification. Cars of that year and newer mostly have the 10K oil change interval here in the US.

                      2013 - 2001 = 12 years. 12 years > average age of US vehicle fleet. Means the average car in the US is very likely to have an extended oil drain interval.
                      That's not what I asked you for.

                      Further, if that weren't enough, recent studies show that at least 40% of people are putting off oil changes and exceeding the specified oil drain interval. http://nj1015.com/drivers-putting-of...y-shows-audio/
                      All it says is "40% of people are putting off maintenance to save cost". It doesn't provide any numbers on when they actually change their oil. Here's an example: If a driver still has his job he changes every 3k. Now he loses it and instead flips burgers, so he puts off the oil change until 5k. Going by what the study says, that's entirely within their scope.
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                        #31
                        I'll never understand why you people insist on putting "a new diesel car" into the argument. There are used ones too, you know...some very cheap and good deals. And suddenly you're doing 50+mpg in a car that cost you not all that much... Exactly what I'm planning in the future. Diesel is always a bit cheaper here (not the case in the US, I know) and a hatch with a 1.3 or 1.9 turbodiesel gets awesome mileage on long trips in 5/6 gear; exactly what I mostly do. Chiptune it and you have a little rocket on your hands. It's just win all over the place.

                        But I know what responses await me after my thoughts, so...fire away.
                        Last edited by SchumacherM; January 13th, 2013, 9:35 AM.

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                          #32
                          Originally posted by narf View Post
                          That's not what I asked you for.
                          Too bad. We all have these little disappointments in life. Especially since the study you linked doesn't show the stats for the general public at all - the study said, and I quote:

                          To investigate barriers to HE filter technology use, staff mailed surveys to 1,987 fleet managers. Two hundred and sixty-two surveys were returned (a 13 percent response rate) including responses from several State agencies, and other public and private fleet operators representing a broad spectrum of vehicle types and sizes.
                          This data is based off of fleet managers' actions, not the general public. Fleet maintenance is on the average, far more meticulous and regular than private individuals' maintenance. Fleet managers usually use the much shorter "severe service intervals" listed in the manuals if they don't have an even more paranoid regimen worked up already from an earlier era. It's unheard of for a fleet manager to wait for the service indicator to come on. There are various reasons for this, but the bottom line is they just about always service earlier than anyone else would. My CVPI that I recently sold was run in the police fleet of a small town in Texas. They ran 2500 mile oil changes - *nobody* would do that in the private sector.

                          So you haven't presented anything to support the argument that the average US car is having its oil changed that soon. Remember, fleets make up a tiny minority of the cars in the US.

                          All it says is "40% of people are putting off maintenance to save cost". It doesn't provide any numbers on when they actually change their oil. Here's an example: If a driver still has his job he changes every 3k. Now he loses it and instead flips burgers, so he puts off the oil change until 5k. Going by what the study says, that's entirely within their scope.
                          It doesn't say they change it that early, either. It says that they're putting it off. Most people (assuming they even know there's a set interval, which many don't any more here) now change at the recommended extended interval. If that's what they're doing, then they're blowing off the extended interval. This would be borne out by many of the incidents of engines ruined by oil gelling due to people blowing off the extended interval by a bit. (Not the ones caused by bad design or bad specifications, though.)

                          Also, some other evidence - if people were changing their oil that frequently, the formerly ridiculously profitable quick oil change places in the US wouldn't be filing for bankruptcy. The JiffyLubes and QwikLubes of America that used to be 'just oil changes' were licenses to print money until the extended interval cars showed up. Now they've been decimated because of the lack of custom. Most have been forced to become general repair shops with the oil changes as a sideline.

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          Originally posted by SchumacherM View Post
                          I'll never understand why you people insist on putting "a new diesel car" into the argument. There are used ones too, you know...some very cheap and good deals. And suddenly you're doing 50+mpg in a car that cost you not all that much... Exactly what I'm planning in the future. Diesel is always a bit cheaper here (not the case in the US, I know) and a hatch with a 1.3 or 1.9 turbodiesel gets awesome mileage on long trips in 5/6 gear; exactly what I mostly do. Chiptune it and you have a little rocket on your hands. It's just win all over the place.

                          But I know what responses await me after my thoughts, so...fire away.
                          There are exactly three diesel car types available in the US market between five and fifteen years old. Note - cars, not trucks.

                          1. Diesel E-class, 3.xL diesel - only one diesel engine size offered per year.
                          2. Diesel Golf/Jetta. 1.xL diesel - only one diesel engine size offered per year.
                          3. Diesel Beetle, see above.

                          Two if you want to combine the Beetle as a 'Golf/Jetta Type With A Different Body." And they didn't sell very well so there aren't that many used examples available out there. Diesel cars have been gone from the US mainstream for a very long time. Thanks, GM!
                          Last edited by Spectre; January 15th, 2013, 1:47 AM.

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                            #33
                            Maybe I should have pointed out that I had all of you in mind, not just the US. But I see your point, I didn't know the situation is THAT pathetic. Sucks balls, to be honest.

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                              #34
                              Originally posted by SchumacherM View Post
                              Maybe I should have pointed out that I had all of you in mind, not just the US. But I see your point, I didn't know the situation is THAT pathetic. Sucks balls, to be honest.
                              Oh yeah, and there are NO 2008 VW diesel cars here. 2008 was a skip year because of new EPA and other environmental regs. Their TDI wasn't ready, so for MY 2008 your single diesel engined car option was the E-class (which briefly had a hiatus as well). Cuts into the supply even further.

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              Also, see this prior post of mine for a little synopsis of why the US market for diesel cars tanked.

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                                #35
                                Originally posted by Spectre View Post
                                Another problem for US diesel acceptance is higher maintenance costs for the diesel. The oil change prices alone are considerably higher for most diesel vehicles, even given equivalent size engines just to start. Other maintenance costs are also higher in terms of parts cost, specialist labor, and diesel exhaust fluid.
                                True, the service intervals tend to be shorter - my Pug was 20,000 Miles recommended for Petrol and 12,000 for the TDi diesel engine I ran.

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