9/11 - 5 Year Anniversary

I'm just saying that he totally misread my previous statement.

and if you must know, I know 1 foreign language rather fluently, and am able to get by in 3 others. I am only exposed to one of them. how many are you exposed to over there hmm? I don't learn languages because i need to or because my neighbors speak something else unlike most of europe, I do it because I like to.

even having a degree from whatever school in estonia doesn't make you qualified to speak on such matters. There are very specific areas of study in question here. even if you went to mines or MIT as a few of my friends have, you still wouldn't be qualified.

all this is just conjecture and conspiracy theories.

also, why does someone in estonia even care about the US?
 
The victims may be the attackers, I thought about it since 2003, the DOUBT has installed into me.

Some videos I saw recently re-launched my DOUBTs:

http://www.dailymotion.com/popular/video/x63b_911-in-plane-12

http://www.dailymotion.com/popular/video/x63b_911-in-plane-22

A bit like the Moon's expeditions and J.F.K.'s assassination.


The only thing I wish, even thought I'm agnostic, is that all victims rest in peace (in US and Middle-East) and the attackers go deeply to hell, whoever they are, because they have badly hurt their own in addition to their ennemies.
 
MorroW said:
Why towers collaps when this one didn't? This tower burn almost 24h with temperatures high as 1472 degrees. Look at this damage...it's huge. Almost all outher structure is gone. And tower is still standing. And WTC collapsed just with 1h long fire? http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr69c.html

Why dozens of peole hear explosions before towers collapsed? If bit less than 3000 people were dead due to collaps, why there is so few body parts etc stuff found? And how they can tell us by name those terrorist who hijack planes? Why didn't the famous Oklahoma building collaps after HUGE explosion and massiv damage?

Want to know why they collapsed? THEY GOT HIT BY AIRLINERS. Simple as that. It was a miracle and a testament to the engineers that the building stood that long. These notions are well accepted in the respectful, rational, sane world. I would love to get some sources for the shit you're talking about. It sounds to me like you are spewing out Loose Change verbatim.

And gee golly wiz, I wonder what people would describe the sound of the carnage around the area? Loud? Explosions?

Listen, you claim to be an engineer. As a fellow engineer, I am going to guess/hope that you have the slightest idea of engineering ethics. I am sure you learnt that it is important to back your claims with sound, scientific and mathematical evidence. Otherwise, you are a crackpot. Correct? I am sure you do the same in writing your reports and what have you. I want you to sit and watch Loose Change once again, this time refering to this link http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html . Read it in detail. The author brilliantly outlines the countless number of complete falseties, irreputable sources, and outright disrespect towards the victims on this tragic day. Not to mention that Loose Change sources almost everything from the time of 9/01. Investigations done by real scientists take years. This asshole put together this movie in what seems to be weeks.

I'll give you a chance. Maybe the film caught you off guard. As an engineer, though, I expect you to be smarter than that. Otherwise, you're putting the whole Estonian educational system to shame.
 
///M said:
Want to know why they collapsed? THEY GOT HIT BY AIRLINERS. Simple as that.

Yeah, I think that explains it quite well, actually. What's so hard to understand?
 
Just released the other day (i dont know if it was posted here)... but here is a quicktime video of some new footage. Shot from the north by someone on the 36th floor of an apartment building, about 600yrds away.

very sobering without all the reporter commentary.

http://revver.com/view.php?id=59686
 
jeffy777 said:
///M said:
Want to know why they collapsed? THEY GOT HIT BY AIRLINERS. Simple as that.

Yeah, I think that explains it quite well, actually. What's so hard to understand?

It becomes hard when you have some know-it-all asshole at home that makes a movie and tries to clame that buildings have burnt for 24 hours and have not collapsed. People fail to see how much energy an airliner travelling at that speed has, how much fuel it has, and what it means when insulation is blown off steel and steel warping, not melting, at certain temperatures.

Not only that, I think these theories are extremely offensive to the victims and their families. Watch Loose Change, and the part about Flight 93 'landing' in Portland, and tell me you would not want to punch the idiot narrating in the face.

Do something constructive with your energy. How about channeling your frustration about the government in more effective ways. The issue is not who did it, but how they did it. Why did the US government fail in stopping this attack? The evidence is there that it was a terrorist attack, so unless you have something constructive to say, stop being a nuisance to everyone.
 
///M said:
jeffy777 said:
///M said:
Want to know why they collapsed? THEY GOT HIT BY AIRLINERS. Simple as that.

Yeah, I think that explains it quite well, actually. What's so hard to understand?

It becomes hard when you have some know-it-all asshole at home that makes a movie and tries to clame that buildings have burnt for 24 hours and have not collapsed. People fail to see how much energy an airliner travelling at that speed has, how much fuel it has, and what it means when insulation is blown off steel and steel warping, not melting, at certain temperatures.

Not only that, I think these theories are extremely offensive to the victims and their families. Watch Loose Change, and the part about Flight 93 'landing' in Portland, and tell me you would not want to punch the idiot narrating in the face.

Do something constructive with your energy. How about channeling your frustration about the government in more effective ways. The issue is not who did it, but how they did it. Why did the US government fail in stopping this attack? The evidence is there that it was a terrorist attack, so unless you have something constructive to say, stop being a nuisance to everyone.

Good thoughts man :)
 
Yesterday I had word with 2 persons - one has been working more than 10 years as architect (mainly metal structures for industrial buildings) and guy who will get his structural engineer doctor degree in 2007.

Question was - can this type tower collaps directly down and in less than 15 secs. Answer was both times no.

Structure was strong enought to withstand plane crash...but why then tower collaps 57 minutes after that? Heat can not change steel structure so fast. So nor collaps or heat wasn't reason why those towers collaps. And if you ask me, I belive those guys more then my parents or what government told me.

Now the bold part..if you take wind against tower (lateral force) then what happens with structure? One side will get compressed and other side stretch out. And this is vertical direction force for those steal beams and outher structure = crushing weight from above. So what you said is not 100% correct.

...and removal of the fire protection coating from the steel beams.

Steel used for building does not melt or weaken in so short fire...even without fire-resist coating (If you remember melted metal was found in tower basement :shock:)

About Oklahoma: The Federal Building did collapse, and much faster than the WTC - it just left parts of the 3 walls standing because of the way the building was designed - which was also repsonsible for the progressive collapse. Here is a photo of the building before the bombing so I can demonstrate the different construction techiques.

The yellow lines show the aprox. location of the upper load bearing columns. The green is a main cross member that transfers the downward force of the upper floors to the thicker more widely spaced lower colums. The truck took out the two marked in red, leaving a large section of the main cross beam unsupported, the weight of the upper floors panckaked and fell forward away from the support still offered buy the undamaged sections. Differnt types of construction, different materials, different design, different type of building, different type of damage.

Ok, different type of construction...but still there was a lot of undamaged structure in towers. Do you have any idea how was 7 build? Probably also box-type?

OK, I tried to watch the video, I really did. You can't be serious. There was not one shred of positive proof in there, just a bunch of paranoid connections of chance events. Ok, a manual was issued with the WTC in crosshairs, why do you suppose that is?

Cmon, it's not important for how stuff collapse :D I really don't care about this type of bs :)

I want solid forensic proof that there were explosives...
You need to produce hard evidence, not conjecture and speculation.


Belive me, I would like to rewind and take a closer look what happened there ;)

zenkidori said:
Yes, I don't have doctor degree ot something about demolitions or engineering. But hell yeah I have clue how things work.
no actually, you don't.

I have born in land where I live and work. Don't make it personal. And btw, I hate racist.
you probably don't know english well enough to know that there was nothing personal or even remotely racist in that post. way to not get it at all, good job.

1) Sorry, but you are not open-mind person and I don't see point to argue with you.

2) Yes, it's not my native language. And I hope your words are ment as irnoy, not arrogant ;)

zenkidori said:
I'm just saying that he totally misread my previous statement.

even having a degree from whatever school in estonia doesn't make you qualified to speak on such matters. There are very specific areas of study in question here. even if you went to mines or MIT as a few of my friends have, you still wouldn't be qualified.

all this is just conjecture and conspiracy theories.

also, why does someone in estonia even care about the US?

1) Sorry

2) I don't have degree in engineering and I haven't said that.

3) "Not qualified to speak"? Dude, what? So if I don't have degree of thinkig and engineering, if I don't have firefigher training tc etc I can't ask questions why 3+3 thousand people are dead? Sorry, but I think.

(~3000 in towers and ~3000 in war after that)

4) Yes, because original raport does not answer for all questions. And asnwered ones are not 100% firm.

5) Sadly yes. Our government send troops to Iraq...why, don't ask me :D

///M said:
1) Want to know why they collapsed? THEY GOT HIT BY AIRLINERS. Simple as that. It was a miracle and a testament to the engineers that the building stood that long.
2) Listen, you claim to be an engineer...it is important to back your claims with sound, scientific and mathematical evidence.
3) http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html . Read it in detail. The author brilliantly outlines the countless number of complete falseties, irreputable sources, and outright disrespect towards the victims on this tragic day.
4) This asshole put together this movie in what seems to be weeks.

1) Really? Is it so simple? For me it's bad engineering or building. Because if we think how towers was supposed to build...they should not collaps. Andif they would collaps...then not like they did.

2) I'm not engineer and I can't find where I have said that :S And sorry, I don't want to 24/7 deal with this thing ;) I'm busy person :(

3) It's good stuff definitely. I still haven't got enought time to read and watch it fully. But for me this author (with his arrogant attitude) don't answer why they collapse so fast.

4) Why you call him as*hole? Because he thinks different? Because he don't belive official raport? Sorry, but if you really are engineer...you don't speak very nicely for educated person. :thumbsdown:


For me it's clear - those towers (including 7.) should not been collapsed. But they did...and in way no educated and not brain-washed engineer can explain.

And once more - I'm not engineer with degree.

I think I might not reply here more...not much point to spend my time for somethin I belive anyway. I hope someday we will get answers how and why it all happened. I meanwhile hope to read and watch more about flight 93.

Thanks for Blind_Io for sane replys.
 
MorroW,

I'm sorry but saying that steel does not loose tensile strength with the application of heat is nutters. After 5 years of reviewing data, computer modeling and the finest structrual engineers, metal experts, architects, and scientists in the world have decided that the removal of the isulation combined with the widespread fire and damaged imact area all came together to result in the total progressive collapse of the building. You are arguing the impossible position here by saying that there is no way the building could have come down in the time that it did. Clearly there was a way for the building to come down, because we all saw it happen.

As for your claim that the tower design was faulty, nothing could be further from the truth. It was the revolutionary design of the WTC towers that kept them standing as long as they did by redistributing the weight around the damaged outter wall sections - thus allowing more people to get out of the towers and saving lives. No sky scraper was ever hit with that kind of force before 9/11 - the closest thing was a WWII B-24 Liberator that crashed into the Empire State Building back in the late 1940's, but it didn't even carry half the kenetic and potential energy of the Boeings that hit the WTC. It's entirely possible that a box construction would have suffered much more damage and collapsed faster as the engines and heavy components would have torn through more main support beams in a box structure. The box design would not have allowed for the redistribution of weight around the damaged sections and may have resulted in instant progressive collapse.

We'll never know, but to fault the design of the towers is misplacing the blame. There is no way that any designer could have forseen the type of damage and fire that occured on 9/11 and it's impossible to build an "aircraft-proof" building. The WTC was a revolutionary and very robust design and had it not been attacked would have probably stood for more than a century. Remember this was also the building that was bombed at the foundation - destroying one of the major suppor pillars for the entire structure and the towers redistributed the load to the other columns exactly how they were supposed to.
 
I dont think i've posted it here before but heres an 'above top secret' conspiracy theoriststs forum link to an extremely well put together analysis of the Pentagon incident and elsewhere on the site is an analysis of the WTC attacks. And theres none of that 'so common sense tells us that' or 'so obviously' nonsense.

link

And for those that don't believe some1 who could barely fly a plane on flight simulator could crash a real one into a building have to realize that the most difficult aspects of large aircraft flight is takeoff and landing. Only one of which needed to be used and not even mastered, really.
 
Clearly all that "evidence" was planted there by government operatives! :roll:
 
ESPNSTI said:
Clearly all that "evidence" was planted there by government operatives! :roll:
Probably when the Pentagon workers were on coffee break :roll:
 
I already told you guys what happened on 9/11:
I said:
Aliens were responsible for 9/11, they were trying to take out the black oil vaccine. They weren't airplanes at all, they were alien bombs made to look like airplanes. All the people who "died" were actually abducted and will be the first batch of alien/human hybrids.

Iraq is just a proving ground for the super soldiers.

Osama Bin Laden is actually a rebel alien bounty hunter who started a resistance force against the black oil conspiracy.

the oil siezed in Iraq is being used to make more "black oil", not gasoline, hence rising gas prices.

the neocons who are part of the black oil conspiracy hate gays because they could never produce any hybrids.
 
zenkidori said:
I already told you guys what happened on 9/11:
I said:
Aliens were responsible for 9/11, they were trying to take out the black oil vaccine. They weren't airplanes at all, they were alien bombs made to look like airplanes. All the people who "died" were actually abducted and will be the first batch of alien/human hybrids.

Iraq is just a proving ground for the super soldiers.

Osama Bin Laden is actually a rebel alien bounty hunter who started a resistance force against the black oil conspiracy.

the oil siezed in Iraq is being used to make more "black oil", not gasoline, hence rising gas prices.

the neocons who are part of the black oil conspiracy hate gays because they could never produce any hybrids.
oh yea, they had a thing about it on dateline nbc
 
honestly, whatever everyone thinks. if it was the US government or binladen. whoever it was they are a disgrace to humanity.

On the other hand, i want to send out my condolences to all the family members that suffered from this tragedy.
 
No Boss said:
Just released the other day (i dont know if it was posted here)... but here is a quicktime video of some new footage. Shot from the north by someone on the 36th floor of an apartment building, about 600yrds away.

very sobering without all the reporter commentary.

http://revver.com/view.php?id=59686

I just came on to post the same link. Wow....
 
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