Random Thoughts (Political Edition)

Sir, as a matter of introduction my name is Paul Mundt, member 5001 and I served as the Chapter 5 President in 1996 and 1997. I retired from active duty in 2002, moved to Tampa and have worked at CENTCOM and SOCOM since then. Recently I was approached by a private organization, the Foundation for the Defense of Democracy (FDD) on a significant issue. I have worked with FDD in the past and trust their judgment and intent. You can find info on FDD at http://www.defenddemocracy.org. The issue that I was approached on is a recent ruling by Judge Bates, a DC Federal Circuit Judge. Succinctly this ruling extends Habeas protections to all detainees world-wide and the ramifications on US current ops, especially SOF, are significant. FDD in conjunction with a DC based legal team is filing an appeal to this judge?s ruling known as an Amicus brief. For the Amicus brief to be successful they will need ?plaintiffs? that can demonstrate that they will be harmed by the judge?s ruling. This ?harm? could come in the form if increased exposure on a target due to increased dwell time to gather evidence, etc? Please contact me soonest at mundtpd@gmail.com This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it and I can provide additional information to include an information paper. What I am asking is that the SFA reach out to its members, disseminate this information and ask, if interested, that SFA members contact the head of the legal team, Mr. David Rivkin. David is preeminent DC lawyer and is pursuing this appeal pro-bono. Essentially David needs statements from service members with recent ground experience that would be willing to say that Judge Bate?s ruling will have a negative impact on their operations. I apologize for the short fuse but time is short as this appeal will go forward in early September. I will also be in Fayetteville next week for a conference and can further discuss. Finally, this is not about politics. This is addressing a bad ruling by a judge that was never challenged when it was made. We need to fix this soonest.

Thank you in advance, Paul

Reasons to have a representative sample of former special forces personnel participate as friends of the court in the United States Court of Appeals? review of Judge Bates? April 2, 2009 decision in the Maqaleh case

Background

In 2008, the Supreme Court decided the Boumediene case, which ruled that Guantanamo Bay detainees are entitled to review by United States district courts of the government?s decision to detain them as enemy combatants. In justifying this decision, which overturns longstanding Supreme Court precedent and hundreds of years of prior practice, the Court?s majority relied on a multi-factor test, one of the factors being the extent of the "practical difficulties," caused by making habeas review available to captured enemy combatants.

In April of this year, Judge Bates (a federal district court judge in DC), applying Boumediene's framework, extended the habeas process beyond Guantanamo Bay, and to several Bagram-based detainees who were originally captured outside Afghanistan. Judge Bates also considered, but at least for now, rejected the option of extending habeas to all Bagram-based detainees, including those captured in Afghanistan, stating that to do so would be viewed as an affront to the Karzai government and harmful to U.S./Afghan relations. While the media praised Judge Bates? ?moderation?, the Maqaleh decision, in addition to being legally flawed, has negative implications for the U.S. ability to conduct successful combat operations in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

What Needs To Be Done Going Forward

The Maqaleh case could have been argued much more effectively by the Department of Justice (?DOJ?). Although DOJ made legally correct arguments, the government?s lawyers neglected to emphasize the disastrous policy consequences of the ruling sought by the detainees and also failed to win in the court of public opinion. As courts take an increasing role in micromanaging military operations, these considerations have only become more important.

When it came to "practical difficulties" prompted by the extension of habeas to even a subset of Bagram-held detainees, all the DOJ told Judge Bates was that conducting habeas hearings in a war zone would be burdensome to the government. This is true, but not enough. The Court of Appeals needs to understand that extending habeas to people captured through special forces operations (which is the most likely scenario for captures outside of Afghanistan) will cause severe "practical difficulties." The teams/personnel effecting these captures would have to collect forensic and other evidence sufficient to enable DOJ to prevail in the habeas process, often under fire. All things being equal, complying with these requirements would cause special forces personnel to spend more time in the target area and complicate operational planning, increasing the prospects of additional casualties and even mission failures.

Another consequence of the Maqaleh case will be a reduction in the tempo and effectiveness of special forces operations in the Afghan theater. In this regard, we understand that FBI agents are now being tasked to join special force teams when they go out on missions, both to help in evidence-gathering and to read Miranda warnings to captured enemy combatants. We also understand that steps have been taken to ensure that no enemy combatants captured outside of Afghanistan are brought into Afghanistan. These steps are being taken even while the government is appealing Judge Bates? decision. This underscores just how much a decision by a single district court judge may impair military operations.

While challenging Judge Bates? ruling, the Obama Administration is unwilling to raise the difficulties of having to treat special forces operations like police raids. For ideological reasons, it can never admit that applying the habeas framework to any aspect of wartime operations is other than a cost-free exercise. Hence, this point needs to be raised by ?friends of the court? or amici.

Although we have written numerous amici briefs in post-September 11th national security cases, these have typically been on behalf of law professors, law practitioners and former government policy officials. In this case, however, the most compelling ? and therefore the most difficult to ignore ? amici would be former special forces personnel. The goal to explain to the United States Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit (which is reviewing Judge Bates? decision) and, ultimately, to the Supreme Court, that additional American combat casualties and reduced effectiveness of special forces operations will result unless Judge Bates? mistaken Maqaleh decision is reversed. While we cannot guarantee success at either the D.C. Circuit level (a lot depends on which judges are assigned the case) or at the Supreme Court level, we believe that a strong amicus brief would be taken very seriously by the Court.

Process and Timeline

Our amicus brief must be filed by September 7. The government?s brief is due on August 31; since we are supporting the government?s position that Judge Bates? decision should be overturned, we have to file within 7 days of the government?s filing. We will draft the brief ? it will be short and focused on the practical consequences of the Maqaleh decision ? and circulate it to all participating amici for their review. The front part of the brief will have to include ?amici qualifications?. This is a section that serves to tell the court who the amici are.

We would like to include as much detail as possible. Length of service, rank attained, medals/awards, participation in combat operations and so forth are among the information we would like to list for each amici. We would certainly not include any sensitive operational details or any past mission-specific descriptions. Indeed, to make sure that everybody is comfortable, we would ask each amicus to present us with the first draft of the language describing his qualifications.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/disturbing-developments.htm
 
Anyone else thinks it's funny that a think-tank called "Foundation for the Defense of Democracy" wants to block habeas corpus? Damn I hate neo-cons.
 
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OK this annoys me.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/transportation/archives/173804.asp

Murray secures additional $7.6 million for Wash. ferries
U.S. Sen. Patty Murray just announced that she's secured an additional $7.6 million in stimulus money for Washington ferries, one day after the nation's largest ferry system was "shortchanged" by the U.S. Transportation Dept.

On Tuesday, Washington was virtually left out of $60 million in aid to ferry systems announced by the federal government. Behind states such as Michigan and New York, Washington ferries got only $750,000 to replace a terminal on Guemes Island in Skagit County.

Murray and Gov. Chris Gregoire fumed today in a story in The Seattle Times, with Murray demanding that U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood re-examine the allocation process. (LaHood was just in Washington state to celebrate stimulus money sent here for light rail and the opening of a new tunnel at the Bremerton ferry terminal.)

Included is $3 million for replacing the Anacortes ferry terminal, $2 million for the King County Ferry District's fledgling passenger-only system, and $2.6 million for Kitsap Transit's Seattle-Bremerton passenger-only fast ferry prototype vessel procurement, according to Murray's office.

"My message to the transportation secretary was clear: Washington state has the largest ferry system in the country and you need to fix this problem. He did and it's a major win for our state and our economy," Murray said in a statement.

This just shows how idiotic this cash giveaway is. The largest ferry system in the U.S. (and one of the biggest in the world) received next to nothing. If you are going to piss money away at least put some thought into it.

This just shows two things. One, Patty Murray is still an idiot (any competent senator would lobby for pork to go to their home state and not be caught unaware until this stage). Two, no thought was put into the spending bill. If you are going to piss away my money at least do so with some thought instead of blindly throwing it at shit. This administration and government is just as incompetent as the one it replaced.
 
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Anyone else thinks it's funny that a think-tank called "Foundation for the Defense of Democracy" wants to block habeas corpus? Damn I hate neo-cons.

I fail to see where the "neo-cons" come into play. This is not about blocking habeas corpus, this is about why the United States should not extending it to those who are not American. To treat the special forces of the military like a police force is to diminish their capacity seriously. They are not police and when they capture and detain people on the battlefield they should be under no obligation to act like police. Please read the article.
 
There's a famous quote of a mafia judge in Sicilly;

- Fighting organized crime is not hard. It's very easy. What's hard is fighting it without compromising democracy.
 
There's a famous quote of a mafia judge in Sicilly;

- Fighting organized crime is not hard. It's very easy. What's hard is fighting it without compromising democracy.

Indeed. However we are not fighting crime, we are fighting a war. Two completely separate situations.
 
I fail to see where the "neo-cons" come into play. This is not about blocking habeas corpus, this is about why the United States should not extending it to those who are not American. To treat the special forces of the military like a police force is to diminish their capacity seriously. They are not police and when they capture and detain people on the battlefield they should be under no obligation to act like police. Please read the article.
:rolleyes: "Read the article"? I read it and more. You're the one who needs to do a little homework here. You can't take stuff like this at face value. FDD is a neo-conservative thinktank (run by prominent neo-cons, paid for by wealthy neo-cons and assorted corporations/funds). Their primary interest is providing ideological support for the wars in the middle east and spurring support for a confrontation with Iran.

This response is just a carefully crafted political ploy created to be eaten up by people such as yourself. Do you really think that special forces, guys operating in places like the the Afghanistan/Pakistan border, are going to do anything different because of a vague law? Do you think that Obama, the same man who called for strikes in Pakistan and bit a huge political bullet over CIA torture, is going to enforce anything like that?
 
Indeed. However we are not fighting crime, we are fighting a war. Two completely separate situations.
So war isn't technically criminal? You should tell that to convicted war criminals. It would probably make them feel better, albeit a bit confused.
 
Indeed. However we are not fighting crime, we are fighting a war. Two completely separate situations.
There's a fundamental flaw in your argument. And that is that in war, there are rules. If the fight is not against crime, then it is war. If it is war, then there are rules that the United States has no business messing with.

That's it, and if the US wish to keep its place as a respected democratic nation, it can't mess with them. If US soldiers had recieved some of the threatment some enemies of the US has recieved, there would be a public outcry. The US shall expect their soldiers to be threated according to the rules of war, and the US shall threat their prisoners according to the rules of war. And if the enemy doesn't threat their prisoners according to those rules, it is even more important to play by the book.

I love Life on Mars, Phillip Glennister is great as Gene Hunt. It's a lot of fun. But going around the rules and fixing up people with planted evidence leads to bad things over time. The same can be said about war.

And when you are fighting a war for democracy, it is more crucial than ever to fight the war without compromising democracy.

And just to have it said, the Mafia vendettas in Sicilly were closer to war than to normal crime.
 
I think when our enemies start cutting off heads, then it goes to a new level. And its not a war for democracy.
 
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I think when our enemies start cutting off heads, then it goes to a new level. And its not a war for democracy.
Does it, though?

What's the appropriate response to atrocities like that? What do you do when your enemy is cutting off the heads of their prisoners, or using them as human shields and decoys, or stuffing them into concentration camps?

Is the appropriate response to stuff their citizens into concentration camps (see: Japanese-American internment camps)? What about to use their citizens as human shields? Should we cut our prisoners heads off?

What exactly happens when we reach this "new level"?
 
There's a fundamental flaw in your argument. And that is that in war, there are rules. If the fight is not against crime, then it is war. If it is war, then there are rules that the United States has no business messing with.

That's it, and if the US wish to keep its place as a respected democratic nation, it can't mess with them. If US soldiers had recieved some of the threatment some enemies of the US has recieved, there would be a public outcry. The US shall expect their soldiers to be threated according to the rules of war, and the US shall threat their prisoners according to the rules of war. And if the enemy doesn't threat their prisoners according to those rules, it is even more important to play by the book.

What are these rules you speak of? In these case of the war in Afghanistan against the Taliban the Geneva Conventions do not apply. The Third Geneva Convention on the treatment of the POWs does not apply to those that NATO is currently engaged in conflict. Those forces practice several techniques which make them exempt from any protection. In the end however things like the Geneva Conventions are more like suggestions than anything else. If a conflict got severe enough nations would throw those treaties out the door in a heartbeat. The United States and NATO have actually been acting quite civilized in their conduct when compared to past conflicts.
 
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Does it, though?

What's the appropriate response to atrocities like that? What do you do when your enemy is cutting off the heads of their prisoners, or using them as human shields and decoys, or stuffing them into concentration camps?

Is the appropriate response to stuff their citizens into concentration camps (see: Japanese-American internment camps)? What about to use their citizens as human shields? Should we cut our prisoners heads off?

What exactly happens when we reach this "new level"?

I was thinking something like a prison where we can keep them until we prove they are innocent ,they're no longer a threat or ,if they are guilty, forever.
 
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I was thinking something like a prison where we can keep them until we prove they are innocent ,they're no longer a threat or ,if they are guilty, forever.
Alright.
1) Until we prove they're innocent? How does that work exactly?
2) Jail someone until they're not a threat? That makes no sense whatsoever.
3) You should see how well Guantanamo is working out. Holding people indefinitely without charging them only gives terrorists a great recruiting tool. It is making the situation worse.
 
I was thinking something like a prison where we can keep them until we prove they are innocent ,they're no longer a threat or ,if they are guilty, forever.
I'd love to see how much you would like it if you were jailed for a crime you didn't commit, and were only released until you were proven innocent.

Pro Tip: Presumption of innocence isn't just "an American right".
 
What are these rules you speak of? In these case of the war in Afghanistan against the Taliban the Geneva Conventions do not apply. The Third Geneva Convention on the treatment of the POWs does not apply to those that NATO is currently engaged in conflict. Those forces practice several techniques which make them exempt from any protection. In the end however things like the Geneva Conventions are more like suggestions than anything else.

Fella, you really want to be calling it a war and trying to treat it under those rules.

Because if you don't then, I'd like to see you come up with a word to describe invading a foreign country, overthrowing its leaders and still occupying it seven years later.
 
Fella, you really want to be calling it a war and trying to treat it under those rules.

Because if you don't then, I'd like to see you come up with a word to describe invading a foreign country, overthrowing its leaders and still occupying it seven years later.

Doesn't that describe most of the history of England?
 
Doesn't that describe most of the history of England?

Most of the history of Britain mate.

We called it "Empire building", we didn't call it war.
 
Thing is, except for a brief period around the turn of the century, the US doesn't do 'empire'. We tried it, discovered it was a bad idea, and began to wind it down.

Of the last ten countries the US has occupied, we've left all but two. And we left them in better shape than when we went in.

So, when's England leaving Scotland, again? Or Wales? And when's the last UK trooper coming home from Northern Ireland?

Until you do that, you really have no grounds for criticism or comment.

<-- (Mostly Asian, but 1/4 Irish and not particularly appreciative of high-handed Brits talking about 'occupation' as if it was something others did but the Brits were too good to do)
 
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Thing is, except for a brief period around the turn of the century, the US doesn't do 'empire'. We tried it, discovered it was a bad idea, and began to wind it down.

Of the last ten countries the US has occupied, we've left all but two. And we left them in better shape than when we went in.

So, when's England leaving Scotland, again? Or Wales? And when's the last UK trooper coming home from Northern Ireland?

Until you do that, you really have no grounds for criticism or comment.

<-- (Mostly Asian, but 1/4 Irish and not particularly appreciative of high-handed Brits talking about 'occupation' as if it was something others did but the Brits were too good to do)
You need to be very very careful when you mention Norther Ireland, a situation you know fuck all about.
 
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