Random Thoughts (Political Edition)

[British_Rover]

So five years isn't enough to make a real difference then? Is the current state of the economy Bush's fault then?

Dr Grip - I actually came here to post this. The surveillance scandal is deeply disturbing as it violates every American's fourth amendment rights. Rover - whatever the NSA's reasoning behind PRISM might be, the fact remains that they have been secretly collecting records and spying on millions of Americans.

Here is a better graph.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NuxrUKFO_...teJobLossGrowth2008NowMay2013AllRevisions.jpg

http://mollysmiddleamerica.blogspot.com/2012/06/private-sector-job-loss-growth-since.html

There has been a real difference but five years is also not enough time. We went from losing 216,000 jobs per month on average in 2008, with a peak loss of over 800,000 in ONE MONTH, to creating about 200,000 jobs per month. In addition this is with the public sector continuing to be a drag on the economy because of gov't layoffs. If we could have just prevented those layoffs, not added gov't workers like a WPA thing, but just prevented them we would already be back to end of 2008 unemployment figures. If we had actually added gov't jobs using some kind of WPA thing we would be back to per-recession unemployment rates.


This was also a recession caused by a financial crisis related to a housing bust and historically they take much longer to recover from then other types of recessions. The US has already done better then the historical average. Take a look a the recoveries from the various financial panics prior to the great depression and you will see the similarities.

I don't have the article on hand at the moment but I will look for it later.

This selection of posts is a good read by me on how the US has fared in the recovery VS Europe.

http://forums.finalgear.com/search.php?searchid=1647337

 

[Dr_Grip]

Grip I am conflicted about the whole Prism thing.

Its been set up for what almost 8 years now? As I understand it they are only trawling for traffic/contact patterns of non-US citizens and can't listen to specific phone calls or get detailed data without a court order.

That is troubling but not really surprising given that most internet traffic flows through the US and that is not 1984.

That's not true. It is undisputed that the NSA has access to the phone records of all Verizon customers (and, most likely, all other US phone companies' customers, as well) for the last few years. So they know who called whom, when, from which cell tower, and how long they talked. That alone is deeply worrying, as it does not only means that communication habits and inter-person networks, but also movement patterns for every American citizen with a cellphone are stored. This is not even disputed by Obama, Feinstein just uses the usual "it's necessary to protect American citizens and their freedom from terrorists" smokescreen.

Second, even if the Obama administration denies it, PRISM seems to be a system of gateways between NSA computer systems and the systems of the largest US-based internet companies, giving the NSA access to every file, video, e-mail, chat log, ongoing voice or video call and so on that crosses these companies' servers. The Post article makes this quite clear.

 

[ScarFace88]

Is it just me or does it seem like Hideo Kojima predicted PRISM and other similar programs in Metal Gear Solid 2?

 

[Dr_Grip]

It goes back at least to Orwell's 1984. All later texts/videogames/etc (including, but not limited to "Neuromancer" [released 1984]) draw inspiration from there.

 

[MacGuffin]

Well, let me put it this way: The East German Stasi needed to bug their suspects' houses and then interrogate them for information.

The American NSA only needs Facebook, Twitter, Google, Microsoft, Apple and the telephone companies, because much of the information people used to be interrogated and possibly tortured for in the past, is now given away freely to the whole world. Will anything change, now that this information spreads publically? Will there be an uproar, people on the streets, a mass movement to protest against this?

No.

Because people do not defend their freedom, when they don't know or don't feel themselves spied on.

Welcome to the 21st century. I bet some former Stasi officers are banging their heads against the walls now.

But I will promise you, that if this goes on and on, there will be a day, when people will realize it is too late to counteract. Some developments cannot be turned back.

In the end, the terrorists of 9/11 have won.

 

[SpitfireMK461]

I haven't fully formed my opinion on PRISM and the Verizon data collection, but I'd like to play the other side of this issue and get some things straight. The Washington Post, being one of the initial breakers of this news, has some good articles detailing the situation. Here is one which I will pull from.

Clapper also said that ?the United States Government does not unilaterally obtain information from the servers of U.S. electronic communication service providers. All such information is obtained with FISA Court approval and with the knowledge of the provider based upon a written directive from the Attorney General and the Director of National Intelligence.?

In responding to the revelations about PRISM, the White House, some lawmakers and company officials have repeatedly suggested that secret court orders are issued every time the NSA or other intelligence agencies seek information under Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. But the orders, which are also secret, serve as one-time blanket approvals for data acquisition and surveillance on selected foreign targets for periods of as long as a year.

As far as we know, PRISM is not a unilateral effort by the executive. Use of it must be authorized by FISA courts. Yes these courts act secretly to the public, but that is expected considering the issues they have to deal with (terrorists, drone strikes, foreign data collecting, etc). FISA courts also have very high standards for issuing warrants, often higher than the usual criminal court (I do not have a link to this, it is information I've personally gathered from a veteran lawyer of the CIA and NSA with first hand knowledge of the issue). It is also directed at foreign entities, not U.S. citizens.

According to slides describing the mechanics of the system, PRISM works as follows: NSA employees engage the system by typing queries from their desks. For queries involving stored communications, the queries pass first through the FBI?s electronic communications surveillance unit, which reviews the search terms to ensure there are no U.S. citizens named as targets.

The NSA cannot use the system on their own terms. Each search by the NSA is vetted by the FBI to make sure, again, that U.S. citizens are not targets.

Section 702 provides the post-911 legal framework for the ?targeted acquisition? of intelligence about foreign persons outside the United States. The information can be obtained only under a FISA court order and a written directive from the attorney general and the director of national intelligence.

Under Section 702, the attorney general and director of national intelligence must show the FISA court that they have procedures ?reasonably designed to ensure? that their intercepts will target foreigners ?reasonably believed? to be overseas.

The law prohibits officials from intentionally targeting data collection efforts at U.S. citizens or anyone in the United States. The standards for intentional targeting require that an analyst have a ?reasonable belief,? at least 51 percent confidence, that the target is a foreign national.

The law also provides ?an extensive oversight regime, incorporating reviews by the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches,? Clapper said in the statement.

The laws governing this conduct explicitly do not allow data collection on U.S. citizens or targets within the U.S. These laws have been passed (with great publicity) with bipartisan support in Congress.

On the issue of PRISM, I'm surprised that anyone is actually surprised. The Patriot Act and FISA Amendments quite clearly allow this sort of program and even the wiretapping under Bush was upheld as legal. I find the "outrage" by some members of congress as ridiculous. These laws have been around for a long time, they should have been "outraged" a long time ago. I think a lot of this "outrage" has to do with who is currently in the White House.

The Verizon data collection is different, though. It is collection of data on domestic targets which is not allowed under FISA and it's not legal to issue a warrant to collect information on everybody. Though the administration claims this data is collected in an anonymous way (which I find an important point towards its virtues), I don't see it as having any good legal standing. I don't think it will turn out well for the administration or NSA.

 

[MacGuffin]

I see your point but have a question: If they made theft legal, would you consider it right, too?

 

[Cobol74]

Well as far as I am concerned the security services, especially the US and Ukanian have been listening in for years to all the goings on. No one cares anyway, unless people are brought before the courts based upon this information and it is potentially wrong - then they might. Probably helped in the mitigation of all sorts of terrorists in the past anyway.

So just as MacG said above, people will not defend their theoretical freedoms unless they are directly affected by the lack thereof in a personal way.

 

[MacGuffin]

I'm surprised of how neglected this topic seems to be here...

Then again, thinking more about it, I am not

 

[argatoga]

Could you provide a source on this? I've been following the Monsanto lawsuit meme for a while and in every case it's been a farmer knowingly and intentionally seeding with Monsanto varieties they haven't paid for.

I swore I saw something where a Monsanto plant wasn't knowingly installed in a field. However causal searches on Google hasn't found anything. With that said the possibility of someone being framed is there.

 

[Jimi Hendrix]

I'm surprised of how neglected this topic seems to be here...

Then again, thinking more about it, I am not

It's about time you start moving your ass instead of telling others what they have to do from your high horse...

Germany spies on the internet after all

Accidently told the world

While Germans are a little sensitive about online privacy, it appears its Government has no problems with spying on them.
The German government revealed that its police monitor Skype, Google Mail, MSN Hotmail, Yahoo Mail and Facebook chat "as and when necessary" but very precisely.
The information was released as part of a move towards financial transparency. The government released figures of expenses incurred by the Federal Ministry of the Interior following a parliamentary inquiry.
The cost of snooping was in pile of very dry facts and figures which were spotted by the annalist blog whose hacks decided that going through a shedloads of dull tables was better than anything which was on German TV.
On page 34 and page 37 of the report the cost for decoding software for Google Mail, MSN Hotmail, Yahoo Mail for prevention and investigation was listed.
A monitoring system for Skype was mentioned later. The Ministry spent a bit of money on Trojan viruses and IMSI catchers which are used for "man-in-the-middle" attacks on mobile phones used by German police.
This suggests that the belief of the tin foil hat wearers of Germany that coppers were monitoring citizens was not entirely fantastic after all.
The Germans are sensitive about privacy, so the news that internet snooping is routine should get someone jolly cross.

http://news.techeye.net/security/germany-spies-on-the-internet-after-all

 

[Dr_Grip]

Jimi, shut the fuck up, you are not helping. MacGuffin's anti-US agenda may be annoying at times, but your constant insults are even worse.

Of course our government is using internet surveillance. This is old news (and what brought the German Pirate Party into several parliaments). And it is technologically different from what we are talking here (that does not make it better, though): It's about the German government installing the so-called "Bundestrojaner", think Stuxnet for Dummies, on suspect's computers in order to monitor their communications.

Additionally, your link is not exactly what I'd call quality reporting. Calling Anne Roth, who is the sole contributor to the annalist blog linked "the hacks" is not exactly what I'd call doing one's homework.

 

[MacGuffin]

Looking back at the first decade of the 21st century, it's difficult to not have an anti-US agenda.

Still... I want to make clear that it's not the American people I have difficulties with, but with the overall attitude in politics of the state USA. I feel uncomfortable knowing, that the most powerful state in the world is selling out its principles in the interest of "safety". And I know that many, many Americans feel the same.

Only those, who've been told over and over again that they're living in the best country there is, that the rest of the world is second-rate quality at best, that everything which is good for America, is also good for the rest of the world, only those, who draw a line between "us" and "them", can really take offense at that.

I used to be a fan of the USA that pre-dates 9/11, I really was. But unfortunately the unwise and short-sighted decisions after that terrible act of terror will be hard to counteract again... Once you give people power and priviliges, it is almost impossible to take it away from them in a peaceful and reasonable way.

Will the USA be a paragon of morality and liberty again? I hope so. But I really have no idea, if that hope is justified or if everything will become worse...

 

[Dr_Grip]

MacGuffin, the problem is that you assume that the rules by which we judge nation-states apply for the US. At least Herfried M?nkler thinks they don't, because the USA are an empire, which means that they do not treat other nation-states as equals. Your position ("The U.S. would be better off sticking to their values of liberty, democracy and civil rights instead of investing in security and surveillance, because it would widen their influence without the need to resort to force"), identified as Habermasian, is addressed in the first chapter of his book "Empires".

His book on Empires in English.

Und auf Deutsch. (Kurzessay in APuZ)

I am reading his book right now and can highly recommend it. It provides a fascinating insight into the history of world domination from ancient Greece to the USA.

Full disclosure: Herfried M?nkler is one of my PhD advisors.

 

[Cobol74]

Oh goody, do we get an honourable mention?

 

[Interrobang]

From afar it is quite funny to watch how the Repulicans in the US now try to do the balancing act of on the one side blaming Obama for this whole PRISM thing, while on the other side explaining how this all is a good thing and it?s nessecary ...



Also I?m quite surprised by some opinion polls quoted by german news that seem to show how a majority of the american public is for such measures of general surveillance ... to make everyone safer, of course

It?s also quite ironic for myself, because regarding suff like gov.control on car issues, I?m all for it. Put up speed-cameras, let the police do traffic controls, let them raise taxes on non-fuel efficent cars so that producers produce more efficent engines ... I?m all for that. But I strongly oppose Internet control ... damn, all these thoughts. I need some Ice-cream ...

 

[Dr_Grip]

It?s also quite ironic for myself, because regarding suff like gov.control on car issues, I?m all for it. Put up speed-cameras, let the police do traffic controls, let them raise taxes on non-fuel efficent cars so that producers produce more efficent engines ... I?m all for that. But I strongly oppose Internet control ...

Here's the difference: Would you support the government using gps to check where you go, when you go there, how many (and which people) are in the car with you? All in the name of greater fuel efficiency, of course?

 

[Interrobang]

Here's the difference: Would you support the government using gps to check where you go, when you go there, how many (and which people) are in the car with you? All in the name of greater fuel efficiency, of course?

interesting question. I?d definetly have more of a problem if that would be done by private companies for example insurances (because I know they would definetly use that against me, they always do for the sake of profit) ... but yes, I wouldn?t be so happy with that level of data collection concerning cars, also by the goverment. I definetly have a higher trust towards the goverment (even in one like the one we have today I did not vote for) then private companies ... but also that trust stops somewhere, also in the area of cars. But much later then when concerning the Internet.

 

[Dr_Grip]

And regarding all the spindocotoring going on regarding the scope of the data collection by US security agencies, let's hear directly from the CIA's CTO:

More is always better? Since you can?t connect the dots you don?t have, we fundamentally try to collect everything and hang on to it forever. It is really very nearly within our grasp to be able to compute on all human-generated information.

Any questions left?

 

[LeVeL]

Will anything change, now that this information spreads publically? Will there be an uproar, people on the streets, a mass movement to protest against this?
No.
Because people do not defend their freedom, when they don't know or don't feel themselves spied on.
But I will promise you, that if this goes on and on, there will be a day, when people will realize it is too late to counteract. Some developments cannot be turned back.

My god... I actually agree with MacGuffin. What is the world coming to? :lol:

I feel uncomfortable knowing, that the most powerful state in the world is selling out its principles in the interest of "safety". And I know that many, many Americans feel the same.
Once you give people power and priviliges, it is almost impossible to take it away from them in a peaceful and reasonable way.
Will the USA be a paragon of morality and liberty again? I hope so. But I really have no idea, if that hope is justified or if everything will become worse...

If the founding fathers were alive today they would be targeted by the IRS and spied on by the NSA. What we're seeing lately is blatant disregard for our constitutional rights, which is precisely why the founders saw the need for the second amendment. Our politicians are drunk on power, on both sides, and until more people see this and become outraged that their rights are being trampled in the name of a fake sense of security, nothing will change. After all, we did just elect Obama for a second term.

Well as far as I am concerned the security services, especially the US and Ukanian have been listening in for years to all the goings on. No one cares anyway, unless people are brought before the courts based upon this information and it is potentially wrong - then they might. Probably helped in the mitigation of all sorts of terrorists in the past anyway.

If your friends jumped off a building, would you jump with them? Just because other countries spy on their people does not make it okay for another country to violate its constitution to do the same.

So just as MacG said above, people will not defend their theoretical freedoms unless they are directly affected by the lack thereof in a personal way.

This is a very unfortunate truth.

From afar it is quite funny to watch how the Repulicans in the US now try to do the balancing act of on the one side blaming Obama for this whole PRISM thing, while on the other side explaining how this all is a good thing and it?s nessecary ...

That's because the Republicans are 50% at fault here thanks to the Patriot Act.