Random Thoughts (Political Edition)

[argatoga]

Tsipras was playing bluff, and he lost. While I think Greece should leave the EU, Tsipras' erratic behavior should lead to him stepping down.

As for austerity working, it clearly is not when one of its poster children, Spain, has seen the rise of an anti-austerity party even after they are said to have recovered. And in Portugal, the Portages Socialist Party is currently campaigning against austerity measures. Cutting social services is not a healthy thing. And economic growth does not mean the middle and lower classes are doing better. Just look at the US, our economy has been growing, but the middle class isn't seeing it.

If these nations recovered, where is the popular anti-austerity sentiment coming from?

Oh, and for austerity being a good tactic for economic recovery, see Brazil in the '80s. If insanity is defined as making the same decision over and over and expecting a different result, the IMF should be taking meds.

 

[MacGuffin]

Tsipras was playing bluff, and he lost. While I think Greece should leave the EU, Tsipras' erratic behavior should lead to him stepping down.

You surely mean leaving the Eurozone, not the EU

As for austerity working, it clearly is not when one of its poster children, Spain, has seen the rise of an anti-austerity party even after they are said to have recovered. And in Portugal, the Portages Socialist Party is currently campaigning against austerity measures.

The rise of Syriza clones in other countries is alarming and also a reason why a haircut in Greece won't come, despite what the IMF or president Obama are saying. If Greece gets preferred treatment despite all the dodging and cheating and gambling and playing for time of the Greek government, other countries might become unstable, too. It's easy to deal with a rather insignificant country like Greece leaving the monetary union but would be much more severe with Spain or Italy. As cruel as it may sound (and I really have sympathy for the Greek people), Greece leaving the Eurozone (temporarily or permanently) currently seems like the most promising way.

Cutting social services is not a healthy thing. And economic growth does not mean the middle and lower classes are doing better. Just look at the US, our economy has been growing, but the middle class isn't seeing it.

The problem is not that the Greek government cut social services but that it's about the only thing they did. A lot more has to happen than that. I guess it was the easiest way with the smallest obstacles. But it doesn't solve anything. There are several things that need reforms desperately, for instance the fiscal intelligence service, which is currently as good as non-existing. What use is it when you raise taxes but have no means to ever enforce them?

Any offers for external help with setting up a working tax system or a land register (yes, you read correctly) have been rebuffed by Greece. The EU had 1500 revenue officers standing by to help out but Greece never made the request for them. Greece itself has several hundred experts working in Brussels for the EU. They surely could be ordered back home to help restructuring the administration in Greece - but they're also not wanted, probably because they're too "eurofied". It's what I said earlier: Greece is a very proud country and feels insulted when you incriminate it with being a little backward.

A middle-aged woman in Athens was asked on TV what she thought about the whole thing and she replied: "We Greeks are strong, we will get over it and arise again to old strength". I have no idea what "old strength" she meant but it shines a light on how warped the Greek self-perception sometimes is.

If these nations recovered, where is the popular anti-austerity sentiment coming from?

From a certain economical school of thinking and of course from people feeling the restrictions. It's never popular to cut back on people's standard of living, no matter the circumstances. But economical growth will eventually sort that out. Democracy always contains the risk of certain populist parties gaining influence when inconvenient decisions were made. No need to worry. Spain is not Greece, Italy is not Greece and Portugal is not Greece. The task at hand is making that known to people.

Oh, and for austerity being a good tactic for economic recovery, see Brazil in the '80s. If insanity is defined as making the same decision over and over and expecting a different result the IMF should be taking meds.

I never said that intelligence wasn't needed, too

Seriously, though: Greece has been treated with incredible liniency. Normally when a state has such problems, the world expects them to bring structural reforms on the way first, before they get any monetary help. Greece now wants money first for the third time, without having brought any serious structual reforms on the way. All they gave in return so far, were empty promises. Can you really blame the other Eurozone members for insisting on something more substantial this time?

 

[SirEdward]

If you tell people they're going to see their standard of living reduced, and they might even be plunged right into poverty, the anti-austerity movement will grow. It's not a question of whether it's the right thing to do or not, it's a question of human nature; it might be the fairest choice of all, or not, but people will not like it either way. If you enforce it too roughly, people will prefer to default freely rather than suffer at the orders of someone else. Humans are human beings, not ultra-rational, economical beings.

 

[argatoga]

You surely mean leaving the Eurozone, not the EU

I thought leaving the two were to go with the Grexit.

Any offers for external help with setting up a working tax system or a land register (yes, you read correctly) have been rebuffed by Greece. The EU had 1500 revenue officers standing by to help out but Greece never made the request for them. Greece itself has several hundred experts working in Brussels for the EU. They surely could be ordered back home to help restructuring the administration in Greece - but they're also not wanted, probably because they're too "eurofied". It's what I said earlier: Greece is a very proud country and feels insulted when you incriminate it with being a little backward.

The current offer requires massive privatization of infrastructure. I highly doubt it will remain under domestic ownership. Just as most of the bailout went to European banks, I suspect this will be another grab by the banks and their government backers to pay off their poor lending decisions. At least in the US will were more forthright in bailing out our banks for idiotic lending.

From a certain economical school of thinking and of course from people feeling the restrictions. It's never popular to cut back on people's standard of living, no matter the circumstances. But economical growth will eventually sort that out. Democracy always contains the risk of certain populist parties gaining influence when inconvenient decisions were made. No need to worry. Spain is not Greece, Italy is not Greece and Portugal is not Greece. The task at hand is making that known to people.

As I have shown with the Brazil example. austerity does not work in macro economics. Growing out of debt does. You give the middle class money and they will spend it. Hurting them and the poor with government cutbacks does not encourage spending. Micro and macro economics are not the same.

Seriously, though: Greece has been treated with incredible liniency. Normally when a state has such problems, the world expects them to bring structural reforms on the way first, before they get any monetary help. Greece now wants money first for the third time, without having brought any serious structual reforms on the way. All they gave in return so far, were empty promises. Can you really blame the other Eurozone members for insisting on something more substantial this time?

They should remove Greece and let them recover on their own. The return of the Drachma allows for inflation. The problem for the eurozone, and EU, is that Greece is rather well located for Russian interests. Russia would love to have a European pipeline that doesn't run through Ukraine. Europe is running dry of oil, Russia is not.

 

[MacGuffin]

I thought leaving the two were to go with the Grexit.

Nope, the membership in the European Union was never an issue. This is only about the monetary union, the Eurozone.

The current offer requires massive privatization of infrastructure. I highly doubt it will remain under domestic ownership. Just as most of the bailout went to European banks, I suspect this will be another grab by the banks and their government backers to pay off their poor lending decisions. At least in the US will were more forthright in bailing out our banks for idiotic lending.

As one of nour news readers said tonight: There is no choice between good or bad, just a choice between one bad and another bad.

Privatization needs to be done, though. Despite the lack in functioning administrational structures, the whole machinery of state is obscenely blown out of proportion - a result of the decades of croneyism. Every 4th employee in Greece works in public service (for comparison: In Germany it's every 7th employee).

As I have shown with the Brazil example. austerity does not work in macro economics. Growing out of debt does. You give the middle class money and they will spend it. Hurting them and the poor with government cutbacks does not encourage spending. Micro and macro economics are not the same.

As far as I know, there is no certainty about which is the better strategy. One thing is for sure though: Raising the amount of debt more and more definitely isn't a model with much sustainability. It might work for some very rich states like USA or Japan, who have the industrial backbone and economical power to back it up. But even that won't last forever...

There is no golden way, no solution without downsides, and there is pain included in all alternatives. As I said: Choice between one bad and another bad.

They should remove Greece and let them recover on their own. The return of the Drachma allows for inflation. The problem for the eurozone, and EU, is that Greece is rather well located for Russian interests. Russia would love to have a European pipeline that doesn't run through Ukraine. Europe is running dry of oil, Russia is not.

I can agree with that. Things will definitely go even worse and will probably remain bad for a couple of years. But there are big chances, too: Everything made in Greece will become a lot cheaper. Tourists will flood into he country, too, when spending holidays in Greece become considerably cheaper. It could give young and energetic people the kickstart for founding new companies, etc.

On the long run leaving the Euro will be like shaking off heavy chains. But the immediate effect will of course mean that things will get from terrible to catastrophic. And it will hurt the Greeks national pride to the core. Then again, I can see no way out for them without them losing much of their dignity anyway.

 

[GRtak]

What's really warming the world?

 

[GRtak]

Oklahoma GOP compares welfare recipients to national park animals

The wit and wisdom of the Oklahoma Republican Party on Facebook:

?The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. department of Agriculture, is proud to be distributing this year the greatest amount of free Meals and Food stamps ever, to over 46 million people.

?Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us ?Please Do Not Feed the Animals.? Their stated reason for the policy is because ?The animals will grow dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves.?

?Thus ends today?s lesson in irony #OKGOP.?

 

[LeVeL]

Oh that is SUCH a misleading title! It's as if you compared Jesus to Hitler but the title forgot to mention that you were just saying they each had two eyes. In this case they are NOT calling welfare recipients some sort of filthy animals or whatever else liberals think of when they read the title. What they're actually referring to is spot-on: the system is designed to turn people into leeches.

 

[Cryptopygia]

Oklahoma GOP compares welfare recipients to national park animals

And the best response, courtesy of the Oklahoma Department of Human Services.

"Designed to turn people into leeches." Right...

 

[calvinhobbes]

What they're actually referring to is spot-on: the system is designed to turn people into leeches.

Stop listening to Fox News and the like.

 

[marcos_eirik]

Yes, John Stewart perfectly summed up the hypocrisy of the Faux News narrative on that subject:

Why is it that if you take advantage of a tax break, you?re a smart businessman, but if you take advantage of something you need to not be hungry, you?re a moocher?

 

[LeVeL]

109,631,000 people on welfare and a labor force of about 157mil. Do the math.

Another fun fact: in my state the average welfare recipient is sitting on the equivalent of over $50k/year. For comparison's sake, my first full-time job out of college paid about $36k.

Europeans that like defend welfare in America, have you ever been inside a welfare office? Ever listened to people complain about not being able to make their subsidized rent payments while maintaining $200/mo cable packages? Ever come home from work to find your unemployed neighbors grilling and drinking outside and remembered that you're paying their rent? Ever come across a woman with four kids whose only disability is not being fluent in English?

The worst part really is that leftists think they're taking a moral high ground by supporting this system and they actually reinforce this bullshit belief by portraying anyone that favors reform as a heartless bastard who's against any and all assistance, which, of course, is the complete opposite of reality. Of course we should have public assistance programs! We should be helping veterans, the disabled, and those that are temporarily out of work. But the way the system currently works makes it.possible to be on welfare for a long, long time and that needs to change.

 

[MacGuffin]

Yes, John Stewart perfectly summed up the hypocrisy of the Faux News narrative on that subject:

Ancient customs.

In earlier times the poacher was threatened with penalty of death for stealing from the landowner, even though he might have only done it in order to keep his family alive. Obviously it was considered a heavier crime to steal from a nobleman than letting people die of hunger. Not to mention that many so-called noblemen were criminals in the first place but nobody ever dared accusing them.

That whole thinking lead to a strange imbalance in crime punishment through the centuries even until today: You can easily spend less time in prison for rape or even manslaughter than for burglary, even today and even in our civilized countries. Funny that it's never ever really doubted. I guess we are all conditioned to consider an attack towards our property more severe than to someone's health or life...

 

[LeVeL]

That whole thinking lead to a strange imbalance in crime punishment through the centuries even until today: You can easily spend less time in prison for rape or even manslaughter than for burglary, even today and even in our civilized countries. Funny that it's never ever really doubted. I guess we are all conditioned to consider an attack towards our property more severe than to someone's health or life...

Citation, please. I've heard of few cases where a simple burglary resulted in a huge sentence, but, sadly, many where serious injurious crimes receive minor penalties. I think that we just need to dole out appropriate sentences for heinous crimes, rather than necessarily lowering punishment for minor property ones, but I could be wrong, as I have looked into this a whole lot. And don't even get me started on drug related offenses...

 

[prizrak]

109,631,000 people on welfare and a labor force of about 157mil. Do the math.

Another fun fact: in my state the average welfare recipient is sitting on the equivalent of over $50k/year. For comparison's sake, my first full-time job out of college paid about $36k.

Europeans that like defend welfare in America, have you ever been inside a welfare office? Ever listened to people complain about not being able to make their subsidized rent payments while maintaining $200/mo cable packages? Ever come home from work to find your unemployed neighbors grilling and drinking outside and remembered that you're paying their rent? Ever come across a woman with four kids whose only disability is not being fluent in English?

The worst part really is that leftists think they're taking a moral high ground by supporting this system and they actually reinforce this bullshit belief by portraying anyone that favors reform as a heartless bastard who's against any and all assistance, which, of course, is the complete opposite of reality. Of course we should have public assistance programs! We should be helping veterans, the disabled, and those that are temporarily out of work. But the way the system currently works makes it.possible to be on welfare for a long, long time and that needs to change.

Pretty much all of this, got a friend from HS who's family deals drugs (mostly prescription) they live on welfare in subsidized housing, except they didn't like the neighborhood they were in so they put in for a transfer to downtown Brooklyn and were granted it. So they will be living in place that is building a new condo building where apartments(!) start at 2 million (not a typo). These people are completely useless, their daughter had a kid at like 15, none of them work or think about working, and who are they selling those drugs to? Why the other moochers who live in the same projects of course!

That's the problem with US welfare programs, for the most part they have no mechanism whatsoever to weed out the moochers, and abusers of the system. So yes a social safety net absolutely needs to be there but it has to be reworked.

 

[LeVeL]

Here's a story from Rhode Island, another state with generous welfare payouts:

Deli Closes Due to Lack of Decent Help

The Woonsocket deli posted a sign on its window that said it has been unable to find "quality" workers and was closing for now.

In Woonsocket, a city that has been grappling with an unemployment problem for years, you?d think that a local company with pay that starts above the minimum wage would have no problem finding eager workers.

But talk to J?s Deli owner James Hallal and he?ll tell you a different story.

One of his three delis, located at 760 Cumberland Hill Road, is now closed with a sign on the door that flatly states a lack of good employees has compelled him to shutter the business, for now.

?Due to our repeated unsuccessful efforts to hire a full team of quality associates to join us at this location of J?s Deli, we have made the difficult decision to temporarily suspend operations at this location only,? the sign states.

In an interview, Hallal said, ?We have tried very aggressively to hire people and have just been running into a problem.?

The problem, he said, is multi-faceted. Some employees didn?t take the job seriously. Others didn?t have cars and couldn?t be counted on to be reliable. With two other successful locations in Smithfield and Cumberland, Hallal said he and his core crew could had been covering the slack but he knew he was starting to be spread too thin.

?We set very high expectations when a customer walks into a J?s Deli and we have high expectations that our employees take the job seriously,? Hallal said. ?The expectations [in Woonsocket] were continuing to be met but I was stretching my staff too thin to meet them.?

Hallal said he fully intends to be open by September and is actively recruiting more employees for the Woonsocket store.

?It had nothing to do with lack of business,? he said.

The inability to secure a decent crew of workers has been a head-scratcher for Hallal. J?s Deli isn?t a bad place to work, he said. The business has been named best deli/sandwich shop in Blackstone Valley by the readers of Rhode Island Monthly Magazine in their annual contest for several years in a row, including the just announced 2015 awards.

?It?s a wonderful place to work,? Hallal said. ?It?s not what you?re thinking: $8 or $9 an hour place. We?re well above that. Well above.

?This is a business that has built up over a lot of years of good will, great service, friendly employees and that?s how I?m keeping it,? he said. ?If one has to be closed to keep it that way, it?s what I?m going to do.?

Hallal has been in the deli business for almost 29 years. The deli is legendary for its ?The Pilgrim? sandwich, which bundles together the best of Thanksgiving dinner with turkey, stuffing, cranberry sauce, some mayo and melted cheese.

Meanwhile Hallal is continuing to pay the rent on his Woonsocket business, along with the utilities. His decision is not about the money, he said. It?s just that he knew, for now, he couldn?t deliver in Woonsocket.

?It?s about doing the job right,? he said. ?I?m absolutely trying to open back up. If you want to work for me, call me,? he said.

You can reach him at the Smithfield location at 285 George Washington Highway at 401-231-0823.

 

[calvinhobbes]

109,631,000 people on welfare and a labor force of about 157mil. Do the math.

So whom did your source* include in that figure? Every single person who received so much as a penny; including e.g. veterans' pensions?

*from their self-description:

CNSNews.com was launched on June 16, 1998 as a news source for individuals, news organizations and broadcasters who put a higher premium on balance than spin and seek news that?s ignored or under-reported as a result of media bias by omission.

Study after study by the Media Research Center, the parent organization of CNSNews.com, clearly demonstrate a liberal bias in many news outlets ? bias by commission and bias by omission ? that results in a frequent double-standard in editorial decisions on what constitutes "news."

in other words: yet another bunch of "We don't like what's on the news and know everything better!" crybabies

 

[MacGuffin]

Citation, please. I've heard of few cases where a simple burglary resulted in a huge sentence, but, sadly, many where serious injurious crimes receive minor penalties. I think that we just need to dole out appropriate sentences for heinous crimes, rather than necessarily lowering punishment for minor property ones, but I could be wrong, as I have looked into this a whole lot. And don't even get me started on drug related offenses...

I was talking about civilized countries

 

[GRtak]

109,631,000 people on welfare and a labor force of about 157mil. Do the math.

First, you need to get the facts straight from the article you posted. Talk about misleading, it is not 109 million on welfare.

109,631,000 Americans lived in households that received benefits from one or more federally funded "means-tested programs" ? also known as welfare

And what percentage of those are working for somebody like Walmart?

Walmart?s low-wage workers cost U.S. taxpayers an estimated $6.2 billion in public assistance including food stamps, Medicaid and subsidized housing,

Another fun fact: in my state the average welfare recipient is sitting on the equivalent of over $50k/year. For comparison's sake, my first full-time job out of college paid about $36k.

Between welfare and working a minimum wage job that is demeaning, soul sucking, and tedious, I too would go on welfare for $50,000. Hell, I might even move to Hawaii for the $60,000.

Europeans that like defend welfare in America, have you ever been inside a welfare office? Ever listened to people complain about not being able to make their subsidized rent payments while maintaining $200/mo cable packages? Ever come home from work to find your unemployed neighbors grilling and drinking outside and remembered that you're paying their rent? Ever come across a woman with four kids whose only disability is not being fluent in English?

Why are you spending so much time in a welfare office? I highly doubt you are, but you sure like to spout the info like you have heard it all first hand.

The worst part really is that leftists think they're taking a moral high ground by supporting this system and they actually reinforce this bullshit belief by portraying anyone that favors reform as a heartless bastard who's against any and all assistance, which, of course, is the complete opposite of reality. Of course we should have public assistance programs! We should be helping veterans, the disabled, and those that are temporarily out of work. But the way the system currently works makes it.possible to be on welfare for a long, long time and that needs to change.

You righties are not against all assistance. You fucking love that corporate welfare that helps the richest companies in the world avoid paying a fair share in taxes and bails out the bankers.



You really need to get a grip on reality. Yes there are more than a few that milk the system, but the vast majority are either the working poor or disabled. So get the corporations to pay a higher wage and we won't have to subsidies as many people.

 

[LeVeL]

First, you need to get the facts straight from the article you posted. Talk about misleading, it is not 109 million on welfare.

Households whose budgets include welfare are not on welfare? What?

And what percentage of those are working for somebody like Walmart?

How many hours a week do they work at Walmart? My guess is under 40...

Between welfare and working a minimum wage job that is demeaning, soul sucking, and tedious, I too would go on welfare for $50,000. Hell, I might even move to Hawaii for the $60,000.

Yep, and you'd be a leech. Heaven forbid you hold onto a job you don't like... Oh the humanity! Seriously, cry me a river.

Why are you spending so much time in a welfare office? I highly doubt you are, but you sure like to spout the info like you have heard it all first hand.

I'm not currently but I have before. So yes, I have heard all that first-hand.

You righties are not against all assistance. You fucking love that corporate welfare that helps the richest companies in the world avoid paying a fair share in taxes and bails out the bankers.

Funny how NONE of that describes me. Try again.

You really need to get a grip on reality.

Almost a billion dollars in taxpayer money going towards social assistance and I'm the one that needs to get a grip on reality... :lol: Can't make this up!