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    Originally posted by GRtak View Post
    See what I said above.

    There is no reason things can't be different if they would simply stop playing lip service to the vets and start taking action. They act all outraged when there is a problem pointed out to them, but then fail to take any action of any consequence.
    No argument at all on that but do you think it's likely to? The point I was trying to make is a little different though, here we have a concrete example of government running healthcare from the ground up and doing a shit job of it.* I just see no reason to think that they would do a better job if we were talking about them running it for everyone.

    *We have many more examples of how gov't fails at running just about everything, I am surprised this country is doing as well as it is.
    ScarFace88 - "So you're a dildo?"

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      Everywhere you see government failure, I bet there is a link to the congress working to strip that department of resources and or power.
      "I don't care who does the electing, so long as I get to do the nominating" -Boss Tweed

      We’ve gone from 'Hope and Change' to 'Hope and Change Your Story.' -Bill Maher

      Comment


        Originally posted by GRtak View Post
        Everywhere you see government failure, I bet there is a link to the congress working to strip that department of resources and or power.
        Perhaps but again if they are doing it with other things why would anyone expect it to be different with single payer/socialized healthcare?
        ScarFace88 - "So you're a dildo?"

        Comment


          It's not only a question of government failure - which by the way was elected by the people and is therefore legitimate. If they make mistakes, it's because they were given the opportunity to make them. Learn to live with it.

          The problem runs deeper. I discussed this with a collegue the other day and as weird as it might sound, we agreed that to some extent all the symptoms that have been critized on the past few pages here, are typical symptoms of a society with too little to worry about. People with real problems in their lives have better things to do then running around, protesting against stuff or complain about politics. When we criticize our governments or our societies, it's because we're doing well.

          Someone said that during extended periods of peace, a society starts to degenerate -- morally and socially -- and falls into decadence. While I find indications that this might be true time and again, I still find it hard to accept, especially when you consider the horrible inversion of that argument, which is that we'd need a healthy war with lots of suffering from time to time, so we can reset and rise again...

          Yet I see that many problems people complain about, are being artificially created and blown out of proportion, as the video about those student protests graphically showed. Youngsters without a worry in their lives look for something to worry about. A result of having too few real problems seems to help in generating artificial problems.

          I think it's wise to remind ourselves every now and then that compared to humanity's past and history, we live in a paradise. Not a perfect paradise (perfect doesn't exist in nature anyway) but today we live better than any of our ancestors used to live and if we're still not satisfied, it's our personal problem, not a problem of others or the government. It's something many seem to forget very often.

          I hope the small excursion into my thoughts wasn't too theoretical
          Last edited by MacGuffin; March 18th, 2016, 2:30 PM.
          If Liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear" (George Orwell)

          Comment


            It's not only a question of government failure - which by the way was elected by the people and is therefore legitimate. If they make mistakes, it's because they were given the opportunity to make them. Learn to live with it.
            Well... between gerrymandering, cronyism and lobbying it's really only elected by the people on paper.
            The problem runs deeper. I discussed this with a collegue the other day and as weird as it might sound, we agreed that to some extent all the symptoms that have been critized on the past few pages here, are typical symptoms of a society with too little to worry about. People with real problems in their lives have better things to do then running around, protesting against stuff or complain about politics. When we criticize our governments or our societies, it's because we're doing well.

            Someone said that during extended periods of peace, a society starts to degenerate -- morally and socially -- and falls into decadence. While I find indications that this might be true time and again, I still find it hard to accept, especially when you consider the horrible inversion of that argument, which is that we'd need a healthy war with lots of suffering from time to time, so we can reset and rise again...
            Duh....
            ScarFace88 - "So you're a dildo?"

            Comment


              Originally posted by MacGuffin View Post
              It's not only a question of government failure - which by the way was elected by the people and is therefore legitimate.
              Except for Hillary and her army of superdelegates.


              Originally posted by MacGuffin View Post
              The problem runs deeper. I discussed this with a collegue the other day and as weird as it might sound, we agreed that to some extent all the symptoms that have been critized on the past few pages here, are typical symptoms of a society with too little to worry about. People with real problems in their lives have better things to do then running around, protesting against stuff or complain about politics. When we criticize our governments or our societies, it's because we're doing well.

              Someone said that during extended periods of peace, a society starts to degenerate -- morally and socially -- and falls into decadence. While I find indications that this might be true time and again, I still find it hard to accept, especially when you consider the horrible inversion of that argument, which is that we'd need a healthy war with lots of suffering from time to time, so we can reset and rise again...

              Yet I see that many problems people complain about, are being artificially created and blown out of proportion, as the video about those student protests graphically showed. Youngsters without a worry in their lives look for something to worry about. A result of having too few real problems seems to help in generating artificial problems.
              Agreed. In ancient Rome all the people wanted was bread and circus. Today in the US it's cheeseburgers and Keeping Up With The Kardashians. Human nature hasn't changed. As long as we are well fed and have our iPhones, we can't be bothered to study history, research laws, and so on. This is why it's so easy for people like Sanders, Clinton, and Trump (to name a few) to manipulate and to fool the people.


              Originally posted by MacGuffin View Post
              I think it's wise to remind ourselves every now and then that compared to humanity's past and history, we live in a paradise. Not a perfect paradise (perfect doesn't exist in nature anyway) but today we live better than any of our ancestors used to live and if we're still not satisfied, it's our personal problem, not a problem of others or the government. It's something many seem to forget very often.
              Welcome to the Republican party Seriously though, I agree.
              "Men with guts attack those corners!" - Keiichi Tsuchiya
              2006 Acura TL and 1999 Mazda Miata

              Comment


                Originally posted by prizrak View Post
                That's kind of the thing though, it's an illustration of how terrible our government runs things.
                No, that's too broad. The VA is what happens when you hamstring an agency, year after year, decade after decade. "The Government" doesn't run the VA. People do. People doing what they can with the resources allotted to them. And as I said earlier, despite all the problems with the VA it still delivers better healthcare outcomes for seniors under it than seniors under private plans. Because despite their pathetic record keeping, chronic understaffing and long wait times, VA patients know they can get care. They don't put off going to the doctor because of cost. Hell if anything they get in right away because they know it might take awhile to get seen.

                If you want a personal example, like your friend complaining of long waits in the UK; my dad would either be dead or hundreds of thousands in debt if it weren't for the VA.

                Look, I'm not trying to be a dick, but what we have in this nation is a failure of conservatism. As a movement. People expect that funding for services can be continually cut and yet somehow those services will be magically improved. See LeVel. We've got an entire generation of legislators raised on trickle-down, anti-government bullshit. And what are they trying to do at this very moment in the House? Gut Medicaid. Raise the Medicare age to 67. Cut all the Obamacare subsidies. And so many other things.

                They say gov't doesn't work and get elected. Once elected they undermine every gov't function possible. Then when they're up for reelection? "See, I told you gov't doesn't work."

                Originally posted by prizrak View Post
                P.P.S. It's pretty complicated, having great care means nothing if you can't afford it on the other hand being able to get care in general isn't helpful if you can't get it promptly.
                Absolutely. It's a huge pain in the ass of an issue. Massive chunk of our economy. But there are plenty of examples around the world delivering better healthcare outcomes, often for far less money, than our current system. We've got concrete examples to go off of. There's no reason not to pursue those reforms.

                Originally posted by MacGuffin View Post
                I hope the small excursion into my thoughts wasn't too theoretical
                Bringing deep thoughts to our partisan ramblings. I think your friend is, unfortunately, correct. In some respects anyway. Massive wars, even huge natural disasters, certainly get folks priorities in a line.

                Originally posted by LeVel
                This is why it's so easy for people like Sanders, Clinton, and Trump (to name a few) to manipulate and to fool the people.
                You want to talk about people getting fooled? And yet you're happily advocating the policies that are running states like Wisconsin and Kansas, to name a couple, directly into the shitter. I've got a problem with anyone blindly supporting Clinton or Trump. But I have a feeling you would utterly fail at arguing Sanders is out of step with mainstream America. Or that he's somehow radical. Because he's not.

                We've just gotten used to these bullshit Republican-Lite Democrats we've been hearing from for 30 years.
                Last edited by tigger; March 18th, 2016, 11:06 PM.
                Saying smaller engines are better is like saying you don't want huge muscles because you wouldn't fit through the door. So what? You can bench 500. Fuck doors. - MadCat360

                Comment


                  Originally posted by GRtak View Post
                  The congress critters all say they are for the troops, but time and time again they have shown that it is not the troops they are for, but the arms companies that make the contributions to help them get reelected. War and injured soldiers are simply needed to keep those donors happy.
                  I was a McCain supporter early on until he voted against the Post 9/11 GI Bill.

                  My wife is doing an internship with the VA in some ways they are vastly over funded in others they are vastly under funded. Overall she isn't enjoying the internship mostly because she expected to be working for GW1, GW2 or GWOT vets, instead she is mostly working with losers from the draft days who served a month or two before getting out for whatever reason and now have benefits for the rest of their life
                  "The beatings will continue until morale improves".

                  "Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -Isaac Asimov

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                    @tig
                    I don't believe in trickle down economics nor do I believe that social programs can never work. I also know that other countries can somehow make it work. What I'm saying is that we
                    have many examples of government incompetence in this particular country. This is what makes me reluctant.
                    I also don't view Obamacare as a complete failure that many on the right say it is. In fact it's essentially the same program that M Romney's in MA
                    ScarFace88 - "So you're a dildo?"

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by _HighVoltage_ View Post
                      It's like someone comparing spending a week in jail to being sent to a Nazi concentration camp.
                      Depends. Could be one of Sheriff Joe's prisons.

                      Originally posted by Firecat View Post
                      So definitely not the pick people on the left would have wanted. A bit of a safe choice. I think Senate republicans will have to decide whether to confirm (or even hold hearings) or risk having Hillary pick someone more liberal. Or worse yet, have Trump nominate his sister (which I think he sort of hinted at)....and if I'm not mistake she is more on the liberal side of things.
                      If they don't fucking confirm this nominee, they're so steeped in their petty partisan idiocy they shouldn't get to serve on a school board.
                      "If you're not getting the picture you want, you're not close enough" - Robert Capa
                      "Your first 14000 pictures are your worst" - HCB
                      - David Bailey! Who's he?!
                      I am one of "the two most level headed and pragmatic regular posters on the politics forum" according to anonymous sources.
                      blog
                      Bustin' chops since the late 80s

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                        This happened in a Boston suburb that I've been to countless times.

                        Securing the border is a crazy thought, right?? BTW, this is precisely why I'm always armed.
                        "Men with guts attack those corners!" - Keiichi Tsuchiya
                        2006 Acura TL and 1999 Mazda Miata

                        Comment


                          So you're saying American men would never do such a thing?
                          If Liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear" (George Orwell)

                          Comment


                            You have to pretty daft to reach that conclusion. BTW, been to Cologne lately?
                            "Men with guts attack those corners!" - Keiichi Tsuchiya
                            2006 Acura TL and 1999 Mazda Miata

                            Comment


                              You still don't get it, do you?

                              You still don't get that emphasizing that immigrants did this, nurses xenophobia and racism.

                              Of course it's something bad and of course it's criminal behaviour, no one doubts that. The problem is that every day thousands of men are raping women and it never gets a headline like that, simply because they're not immigrants. And how dare those dark-haired strangers raping our women? If someone rapes our women, it has to be us, right?

                              Rape is one of the most hushed up crimes in our Western societies and only making a big issue from it when strangers do it, is so incredibly mendacious and hypocritical that I'm missing the words to express my disgust about it.
                              If Liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear" (George Orwell)

                              Comment


                                No. You are the one that doesn't get it. I am an immigrant - it's pretty damn obvious (or at least it should be) that I'm neither xenophobic nor racist. This has nothing to do with them being immigrants and everything to do with them being illegal immigrants. Anyone wishing to come to this country should be screened. I can't fathom why it's not obvious that border security is a must.
                                "Men with guts attack those corners!" - Keiichi Tsuchiya
                                2006 Acura TL and 1999 Mazda Miata

                                Comment


                                  So why did you post it in the thread for random political thoughts, hm?
                                  If Liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear" (George Orwell)

                                  Comment


                                    Border security and immigration have nothing to do with politics, government, etc. Right...
                                    "Men with guts attack those corners!" - Keiichi Tsuchiya
                                    2006 Acura TL and 1999 Mazda Miata

                                    Comment


                                      People around here are of the opinion that it will take some terrible tragedy, like a terrorist attack, before border security becomes an important issue. You know, for people who aren't xenophobic racists. Small tragedies like that will simply be apologized away.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by TC View Post
                                        People around here are of the opinion that it will take some terrible tragedy, like a terrorist attack, before border security becomes an important issue.
                                        You mean like 9/11?

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by LeVeL View Post
                                          I am an immigrant - it's pretty damn obvious (or at least it should be) that I'm neither xenophobic nor racist.
                                          Sorry LeVeL, it's pretty damn obvious from the majority of your posts that you are a xenophobic racist. And that you seem to think that being a migrant yourself makes you are immune to that is so sad it's almost funny.

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