Israel attacks humanitarian aid convoy in international waters

then why don't they get rid of Hamas?

Because as long as they exist, the Israelis can get the weaponry to kick the shit out of Gaza and show how strong it is to the rest of the Middle East. The last thing they want is a freely democratic Palestine.
 
I don't think it's implausible that they were shot with paintballs, though. I don't know, but I don't find it implausible. Would explain why parts of the video hasn't been released.
Me neither. I know that some are claiming that the IDF in the boats were firing rubber bullets (or live rounds). But I think the only part of the video that's been dropped, once they're on deck, is when they pull out their pistols and start shooting.

It seems clear enough. They began with the paintball markers, messed up the insertion, got tackled and beaten with metal rods and knifes and lost a few pistols, and then used their sidearms as a last resort. This did not happen on the other ships because it never escalated. Soldiers were not beaten and the insertions were fairly normal.
Seems completely logical to me. Given all the bullshit on both sides, that's all that makes sense to me. That's all I've been able to come up with.

And all the while, the peaceful Palestinians who are forced to live in a police state suffer. Hamas is revolting but frankly, I believe it is Palestine's right to rebel against blatant oppression. Hell we did the same thing about a couple centuries ago, and I'd say we suffered quite a bit less than the Palestinians do now.
Put in their situation I'd elect Hamas too. I really don't even find the more moderate elements of Hamas "revolting", especially given their situation. And given the fact that our nation was not in so much of a different situation once. With right-wingers in power in Israel that gives the fundamentalists, the more militant wing of Hamas more power. It gives them more rhetoric to play off of. I think that Noam Chomsky hit the nail on the head in that respect.
 
Me neither. I know that some are claiming that the IDF in the boats were firing rubber bullets (or live rounds). But I think the only part of the video that's been dropped, once they're on deck, is when they pull out their pistols and start shooting.
I'm sure they begun taping before the footage they've shown, I'm sure they taped what happened after the footage we've seen, and I'm sure they taped after the violence stopped.

Put in their situation I'd elect Hamas too. I really don't even find the more moderate elements of Hamas "revolting", especially given their situation. And given the fact that our nation was not in so much of a different situation once. With right-wingers in power in Israel that gives the fundamentalists, the more militant wing of Hamas more power. It gives them more rhetoric to play off of. I think that Noam Chomsky hit the nail on the head in that respect.
In 2005, Hamas ran on a social reform plan. They didn't run on "destroying Israel". The moderates got a chance in that election, and the boycot got the militants their chance. Well done!
 
I'm sure they begun taping before the footage they've shown, I'm sure they taped what happened after the footage we've seen, and I'm sure they taped after the violence stopped.

I'm inclined to believe the activists who have said that before the soldiers boarded the ships, they heard live fire and blasts. Now if a full/unedited video is released, that debate can pretty much be put to rest. There are now also claims that a Turkish-American was executed, 4 bullets in the head 1 in the chest. Maybe the video can absolve the Israelis of that as well.
 
I'm inclined to believe the activists who have said that before the soldiers boarded the ships, they heard live fire and blasts. Now if a full/unedited video is released, that debate can pretty much be put to rest. There are now also claims that a Turkish-American was executed, 4 bullets in the head 1 in the chest. Maybe the video can absolve the Israelis of that as well.

According to the Turkish patologist, the rounds were fired 1-14 centimeters from his face. It's quite possible to determine such distances from ie. residue, so if it's true, it's suspicious. And you're right. If it didn't happen, I'm sure the video will show it.
 
Because as long as they exist, the Israelis can get the weaponry to kick the shit out of Gaza and show how strong it is to the rest of the Middle East. The last thing they want is a freely democratic Palestine.

Now that is the biggest load of rubbish I've ever heard. Israel needs to prove it can defend itself? Are you on crack? And by the way, if there was peace, Israel would be able to get even MORE weaponry if it wanted; purchasing weaponry in the current climate is actually MUCH HARDER because of the appearance of arming a force that the Arab world (which provides the world a lot of its oil) is unhappy with.

The sane reality is that the Arab world has no interest in peace. Peace would put paid to the hopes of destroying Israel. As long as this violence goes on, it's still possible to get rid of Israel. The longer it goes on, the easier it is for the short memory of the general public to forget that the pesky details that the Arab world launched three full scale wars on Israel. To forget that during the 20 years that Jordan occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem it did not allow the Palestinians to move there or establish a government there. To forget that Israel has already agreed to "land for peace" and given most of the land that would ever be agreed to to the PA. That the attacks on innocent Israeli civilians continue. That neither Hamas nor Fatah recognize Israel to this very day.

All your posts here, along with nomix, etc., are proof that the "violence plan" works for the Arab world. The longer they keep on attacking Israel, the more people they kill and force Israel to defend itself, the worse it gets for Israel.

Heck, you've got nomix here trying to compare the flotilla to some kind of Rosa Parks moment. Like Rosa Parks blew up some random buses filled with white people, killing them, and then boarded a bus, insisted on sitting up front, and then beat the driver with a baseball bat.

How any sane person can claim that prolonging the violence in Gaza benefits Israel is beyond me. The only people that benefit are the ones that want to destroy Israel.

Steve
 
Heck, you've got nomix here trying to compare the flotilla to some kind of Rosa Parks moment. Like Rosa Parks blew up some random buses filled with white people, killing them, and then boarded a bus, insisted on sitting up front, and then beat the driver with a baseball bat.

If you don't see the flaws in your statement, then you are beyond help.


How any sane person can claim that prolonging the violence in Gaza benefits Israel is beyond me. The only people that benefit are the ones that want to destroy Israel.

Steve

Why do you think Israel continues to build settlements? What is the purpose behind settlements? Israel wants total control of the occupied territories (and more). There is a belief that the land belongs to them. So actually, I don't believe the Israelis want peace. Maybe the "Arab world" doesn't want Israel there, but the feeling appears to be mutual.
 
All your posts here, along with nomix, etc., are proof that the "violence plan" works for the Arab world. The longer they keep on attacking Israel, the more people they kill and force Israel to defend itself, the worse it gets for Israel.
Much in the same way it was a fucking shitstorm to the PLO every time someone from Hamas blew themselves up in Jerusalem, in other words. You don't seem to get it, do you? The longer Israel keeps occupying the terretories, the longer Israel will be attacked. The sad fact, my friend, is that Israel has sabotaged pretty much every single attempt to make any sort of reconciliation with the Palestinians, with the sole exception of Oslo.

Your posts are the proof that that has worked.

Heck, you've got nomix here trying to compare the flotilla to some kind of Rosa Parks moment. Like Rosa Parks blew up some random buses filled with white people, killing them, and then boarded a bus, insisted on sitting up front, and then beat the driver with a baseball bat.
So the convoi blew up something? I didn't know that, that's honestly a suprise. And if you were actaully reading a single fucking piece of what I've written, you would see as clear as day that I was NOT comparing the violence with Rosa Parks, I was comparing denying to go into port with denying to move to the back of the bus. You are either lying about what I've written, or you've simply not read what I've written. I don't like either.

How any sane person can claim that prolonging the violence in Gaza benefits Israel is beyond me. The only people that benefit are the ones that want to destroy Israel.
Who's saying that? My God, you're lying AGAIN! I tend to belive I know better what I want than pompus bastards who've never met me, and the last time I checked, what I want is to keep Israel safe. I know you're a fundementalist who can't see any other sollutions than your own, but when you make wanting a different sollution than your own the same as not wanting a sollution at all, I'm starting to wonder wether or not you are indeed mr. Glenn Beck, you've surely got the same basic style of argument.

Now I'll be taking your lead. You support the settlements. In other words, you wish to see Israel destroyed. Cause that is what WILL happen if the settlements continue. I can somehow understand that there's little chance of getting the settlements dismantled over night, but why keep building them in the first place?

Please, humor me, do you think the settlements makes things better, or do you think they make things worse? I will keep asking you this question until you answer, so you need not ignore it like you normally would. I'm waiting, does the settlements benefit Israel's security, long term and otherwise, yes or no?
 
Nomix raises to the rather obvious bait! Anyhoo

One question: if the ships were allowed to land in Israel would - after proper inspection for contraband - all the aid be sent on to Gaza and hence all aid so sent be passed on? Answer no, not flaming likely.

Next question the impounded money and passports are going to be returned? If not then Israel are thieves as well as what at first sight appears to be murders.

One IDF bloke lost his weapon and 9 dies - what they passed it from person to person until shot - I think not. Let us see who gets prosecuted shall we?
 
In all fairness, someone rushing you with a knife does pose a serious threat, and in the circumstances, live fire may have been the only practical approach. Thing is, we still don't have all the footage, so we don't really know anything about it.

Does serious harm to the IDF story every single minute the videos are not made available. Keep in mind, though, I'm not saying the videos will prove anything either way, I'm just saying I don't trust the selection we've been given. It's like a prosecuter deciding on his own what info, if any, he'll turn over to the defence. It's higly suspicious.
 
Nomix
Like you I feel that the IDF have one single purpose and EVERYTHING else is subordinate to that purpose. They have lost their way with respect to the law - they do not respect it - stealing peoples money and passports, forging peoples passports for their own purposes (OK was Mossad) - come on you lot, makes you look cheap, especially the stealing of the money.

How many of these protesters were put before an Israeli court btw? Can random officials steal people's money and passports (which if I am not wrong oficially belong to the issueing states not the holders - so I would assume as they are not prosecuting anyone in the judicial system they will be returning to the respective governments)if as I understand it they are no intending so to do in Israel is this their idea of law? Well a state born out of terrorism themselves will keep it up I suppose. What amazes me is that the US are so matey with them - I thought that the US liked law abiding states?

Oh and do not forget when Mossad spied on the US - twice they have been caught I think.

Having said all that it is not Israel's right to survive I question now, nor their methods to achieve this, I am actually surprised at just the total hypocrisy of the government really.
\Edit Interesting this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2010/06/21_miles_off_the_coast_of_pale.html
 
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In all fairness, someone rushing you with a knife does pose a serious threat, and in the circumstances, live fire may have been the only practical approach. Thing is, we still don't have all the footage, so we don't really know anything about it.

Even though I want to see the video, like you, at the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that they had no right to be on the boat and there should be no blockade. It's like the criminal shooting a homeowner of a house he breaks into and claiming self-defense because the homeowner tried to kill him.
 
Does anybody actually believe the IDF wilol release more videos/photos than they have now? I'm willing to bet that all the cameras/other recording devices that were on that boat have been destroyed and that all other IDF video/photos hav "mysteriously disappeared".

And I wonder if any sort of autopsy/post-mortem examination was carried out on any of the victims after they were released.
 
Nomix
Like you I feel that the IDF have one single purpose and EVERYTHING else is subordinate to that purpose. They have lost their way with respect to the law - they do not respect it - stealing peoples money and passports, forging peoples passports for their own purposes (OK was Mossad) - come on you lot, makes you look cheap, especially the stealing of the money.

How many of these protesters were put before an Israeli court btw? Can random officials steal people's money and passports (which if I am not wrong oficially belong to the issueing states not the holders - so I would assume as they are not prosecuting anyone in the judicial system they will be returning to the respective governments)if as I understand it they are no intending so to do in Israel is this their idea of law? Well a state born out of terrorism themselves will keep it up I suppose. What amazes me is that the US are so matey with them - I thought that the US liked law abiding states?

Oh and do not forget when Mossad spied on the US - twice they have been caught I think.

Having said all that it is not Israel's right to survive I question now, nor their methods to achieve this, I am actually surprised at just the total hypocrisy of the government really.
\Edit Interesting this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2010/06/21_miles_off_the_coast_of_pale.html
The end doesn't always justify the means. It rarely does, actually.

Even though I want to see the video, like you, at the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that they had no right to be on the boat and there should be no blockade. It's like the criminal shooting a homeowner of a house he breaks into and claiming self-defense because the homeowner tried to kill him.
Yeah, there's no doubt about that. Sure we're not really after the destruction of Israel, though? Steve seems to think people like you and me are hell bent on destroying Israel, you see.
 
Yeah, there's no doubt about that. Sure we're not really after the destruction of Israel, though? Steve seems to think people like you and me are hell bent on destroying Israel, you see.

A question I hear often (not necessarily posed to me) is "Does Israel have the right to exist?"....Personally, I have some issues with that. The fact is, Israel does exist and has been around for 60+ years. I accept that. Now if that question was posed prior to the creation of Israel in 1948, my answer would be a resounding "No"


Does anybody actually believe the IDF wilol release more videos/photos than they have now? I'm willing to bet that all the cameras/other recording devices that were on that boat have been destroyed and that all other IDF video/photos hav "mysteriously disappeared".

And I wonder if any sort of autopsy/post-mortem examination was carried out on any of the victims after they were released.

I was reading an article about 30 minutes ago. The gist of it was that the 9 dead were shot 30 times, collectively. Mostly by 9MM rounds.
 
How am I going to do that? I just think that Netenyahu is a Git.
Stop calling him Netanyahu. He's called Bibi. Makes him sound more like a dork.

This is the guy that Israel needed - they (Right wing Israelis) shot him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Rabin
Sort of, yeah, but what's funny is that even Rabin was a proper SOB towards the Palestinians in the 80s. His death means we've forgotten much of that, but I think it's sad the focus always has to be one the past. Arafat was a SOB, so was Rabin. But how many former SOB's are currently in the Northern Irish government? That's what happens when you compromise, you compromise. Sort of speak.

A question I hear often (not necessarily posed to me) is "Does Israel have the right to exist?"....Personally, I have some issues with that. The fact is, Israel does exist and has been around for 60+ years. I accept that. Now if that question was posed prior to the creation of Israel in 1948, my answer would be a resounding "No"
I mostly agree. Israel must continue to exist, Israel must be safe and Israel must be free. As for 1948, well, at the time, it was evident that a seperate jewish state was inevetable. Sadly it was handled by old imperialists, and the UN thought the best idea was to sit down and talk and decide what to do. Without talking to arabs or jews. They dictated, in other words. Add to that an unfair sharing of the land, and you were guaranteed to have a shitstorm.

-

Anyhow, now they've REALLY lost their plot:

Haaretz: Interior Minister seeks to strip Israeli Arab MK of citizenship

Israeli Arab MK Hanin Zuabi took part in Gaza aid flotilla, in what Eli Yishai calls a 'premeditated act of treason' under protection of parliamentary immunity.

Interior Minister Eli Yishai petitioned Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein to help him revoke the Israeli citizenship of Israeli Arab MK Hanin Zuabi, who took part in efforts to break Israel's blockade of Gaza on a flotilla of aid ships earlier this week.

On Monday, Israeli navy commandos clashed with activists aboard the flotilla's largest ship, sustaining severe injuries and leaving 9 activists dead and dozens more hurt. IDF videos show activists attacking the commandos with sticks, chairs and even throwing a soldier overboard. Activists say that they were brutally attacked by the troops, while the IDF maintains that activists wrestled the soldiers' weapons away from them and fired at them, forcing them to defend themselves.

"In recent days," Yishai wrote to Weinstein on Thursday, "Israel's citizens have witnessed how an Israeli member of parliament, Hanin Zuabi, headed a group of terrorists who aimed to hurt Israel Defense Forces soldiers, under the protection of her parliamentary immunity."

Yishai asked Weinstein for his help as the Supreme Court had ruled that an interior minister cannot revoke a person's citizenship without the written authorization of the attorney general.

"MK Zuabi used her immunity as a cloak to protect her from the law, although she was undoubtedly aware of the activists' preparations for the attack against IDF troops," Yishai wrote. "This is a premeditated act of treason, and there is documented proof of this."

"I must say that since this is an issue having to do with the security of the state, and especially since we're likely due for more such flotillas, I ask that you study the laws that would allow stripping the immunity from any member of Knesset that would try, under the protection of immunity, to aid and cooperate with terrorists that have made IDF soldiers and citizens of Israel their targets," Yishai continued.

The minister concluded his letter by once again requesting Weinstein's cooperation in stripping Zuabi's immunity, in order to facilitate the revocation of her citizenship.

Have he gone completely bonkers?
 
No they want to appear as racists - simple really, have they learnt nothing from being the victims themselves.
 
Eyh, they? We're not talking about Jews, we are talking about Israel.
 
One and the same for Arabs - hence my post. But I do take your point I should have been more clear. The Government want no Arabs in the Houses of Parliament - infact none in the country if at all possible probably.
 
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