Israel attacks humanitarian aid convoy in international waters

Kage said:
Plissken, I honestly feel like you're brainwashed or something. I keep hearing the same words over and over from you, without any proof.
This thread has no point anymore. I thus withdraw myself from the 'debate' until something worthwhile is posted.
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You asked for proof I gave it to you. This entire thread has been backed up by facts and proof. Find me something that I haven't backed up with proof - but read everything first.

But call me brainwashed, because attacking the message is making you look silly, so try attacking the message. I'm just amazed I haven't been accused of anti-semitism - that is the stock tactic.

jmsprovan said:
Ignore the fact it was in international waters for 2 seconds
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NO! Why not just say "let's ignore the fact that I shot the man dead in the street, and pretend he was in my house"? Lets ignore the facts and make up an alternative, just because you find the truth is too damned inconvenient to deal with.

People are trying to paint black as white, up as down, right from wrong, and will not budge an inch in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. In a twisted way I've got to admire that kind of stubborn refusal to deal with reality, to quote Stephen Colbert on George W Bush, "A man who believes in things. What he believes in on Monday he will believe in on Wednesday. No matter what happened on Tuesday."
 
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Kage said:
Replying with the same thing over and over to any argument counts as being brainwashed in my book.
Also, opinions don't matter in a world of facts.
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First of all, being brainwashed has nothing to do with repeating the same lines over and over again. It's tiresome, but no indication of brainwashing. An indication of brainwashing would be to ignore facts, and blindly continue believing what you've been told.

As for wether or not opinions matter in a world of facts.. sure they do. Our opinions influence our perception of the world, and our perception of the world influence our opinon of the world. They also influence how we view facts.

Let me make an example. In my part of Norway, swearing is not only percived as okay, it's expected. In other parts, it's seen as very rude. If I swear, the factual nature of what's happened is objectively speaking the same anyway, but the perception of my granny and the perception of someone from high culture in Oslo may be very different. My granny won't see a problem, someone from high culture in Oslo probably will. That's about how it's percieved, it's not about what's factual and what's not.

In the same way we all interprit facts through our own perceptions. To polarise it, if Bibi announces 1000 new settlement appartments on the West Bank tomorrow, it will be percieved as positive by the settler community in Israel; it'll be percieved as very negative by Norwegian communists.

Plissken hasn't lied once as far as I've seen. Neither have you, as far as I've seen. You just disagree on what the facts tell us.

:)
 
nomix said:
First of all, being brainwashed has nothing to do with repeating the same lines over and over again. It's tiresome, but no indication of brainwashing. An indication of brainwashing would be to ignore facts, and blindly continue believing what you've been told.

As for wether or not opinions matter in a world of facts.. sure they do. Our opinions influence our perception of the world, and our perception of the world influence our opinon of the world. They also influence how we view facts.

Let me make an example. In my part of Norway, swearing is not only percived as okay, it's expected. In other parts, it's seen as very rude. If I swear, the factual nature of what's happened is objectively speaking the same anyway, but the perception of my granny and the perception of someone from high culture in Oslo may be very different. My granny won't see a problem, someone from high culture in Oslo probably will. That's about how it's percieved, it's not about what's factual and what's not.

In the same way we all interprit facts through our own perceptions. To polarise it, if Bibi announces 1000 new settlement appartments on the West Bank tomorrow, it will be percieved as positive by the settler community in Israel; it'll be percieved as very negative by Norwegian communists.

Plissken hasn't lied once as far as I've seen. Neither have you, as far as I've seen. You just disagree on what the facts tell us.

:)
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Nomix, which exact fact did I disagree with? The settlements? The protesters attacking the soldiers? Vice versa?
 
If you guys want to keep talking about who has been brainwashed about what, take it to PM's. It's getting annoying.

I have to agree with Plissken on one thing though, ignoring facts to validate your argument does the polar opposite. You might as well (as an example from the opposite end of the spectrum on this discussion) ignore the fact that the activists fought back to argue that the IDF was not justified in shooting (again, not my opinion, just an example). The perceivied (as it is purely a subjective judgement in the case of an issue like this- something considered to be crucial to the situation by me may be considered a mere sideline by another) importance of facts does not matter either.

I hope that the UN/another impartial (as one can possibly be) international authority can perform an investigation into this, even if there is little outcome from any findings/reccomendations. It would be good to perhaps be able to shed some light on this/see the activist/press' confiscated footage (if it hasn't already been destroyed)
 
Kage said:
Nomix, which exact fact did I disagree with? The settlements? The protesters attacking the soldiers? Vice versa?
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I'm not saying either you nor Plissken has disagreed on facts, I'm hinting you're just interpriting the facts differently.

:)
 
Kage said:
This: http://forums.finalgear.com/politic...ternational-waters-44180/page-21/#post1384785
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Hamas were democratically elected. They are a legitimate government.
That's not my point. Hamas is an extremist group. What would you say if a drug cartel ruled your government democratically?


Really? How can you justify NINE PEOPLE SHOT DEAD?
Ugh, so what were they supposed to do? Die peacefully?


Not true, and I have typed this repeatedly, but the ship the US envoy to Baghdad was one was stun grenaded, teargassed and taken over before anyone realised what was going on. There was no co-operation.
Proof?


Proof?
One example: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL4273371._CH_.2400


Oh, so all your claims above are opinion and not fact then. Glad we cleared that up.
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Which facts need proof?

1. Hamas were democratically elected.
2. Nine people were shot dead.
3. As I've said ten times, the ex-US Envoy to Baghdad said there were stun grenades and gas on MSNBC. If I had more time, I could probably dig out the audio. Here, have an Aussie journalist who was there.
 
1. You're saying the same thing again.
2. I know. And if the soldiers wouldn't have done anything, they'd be dead too.
3. An interesting read.

As a bottom line Plissken, I'm not here to fight. I'm asking for facts or proof, so I could see/read what I might've missed. I'm not saying you or anybody else for that matter is wrong and I'm right.
Here's a thought: Place yourself in the shoes of a soldier that was ordered to board a ship if it failed to cooperate, and was met with violence. What would you do?
 
I'm not blaming the commandos. The commandos were ordered to illegally storm a ship and to prevent it from entering Israeli waters by any means necessary, up to and including shooting people with live ammunition. What I am saying is that those orders were illegal, barbaric and should never have been issued in the first place - practically a war crime. It doesn't justify what happened, it doesn't turn what they were doing into self-defence, and it doesn't excuse the shooting dead of nine innocent people in international waters.
 
According to the sources I've seen that speak to that issue, the authorization to use deadly force was first given after the commandos had boarded. It's hard to verify as I've only seen one independent-ish source that speak to it (article on day 2 on ypost.com), but it would not seem like the commandos were authorized to use deadly force upon entry, only after they were attacked.
 
Kage said:
1. You're saying the same thing again.

He's repeating a valid point. Just because Israeli propaganda says that Hamas is an extremist group doesn't make it so. What does "extremist" or "terrorism" even mean? Please, give me a definition. I often think that the Israeli government commits acts of terror, can I set up a blockade to Israel and board all the ships I see fit?

2. I know. And if the soldiers wouldn't have done anything, they'd be dead too.

Except that they were wearing full combat gear, and in the aftermath were administered medical help by the ship's crew. Sure sounds like the crew were out for blood.
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nomix said:
I've called on the other side to compromise at leat ten times in this thread, probably a hundered times in this category and even more times in verbal discussion of the region with my father. Israel can't be expected to do all the lifting by itself. Israel can't do that, everybody have to pitch in. But expecting the Palestinians to do all the lifting as you seem to suggest isn't possible either. And while you accuse me of not calling for Palestinian compromise, when have you ever called for Israeli restraint?
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I was going to write a big long post, but then I realized this quote summed up your entire arguments neatly.

Just as two examples...
You don't think Israel handing over 90% of the West Bank isn't pitching in?
You don't think Israel handing over Gaza and forcibly removing Israelis isn't heavy lifting?

You may claim to be logical and neutral, but your viewpoints are extremist and condone violence.

Steve
 
Plissken said:
NO! Why not just say "let's ignore the fact that I shot the man dead in the street, and pretend he was in my house"? Lets ignore the facts and make up an alternative, just because you find the truth is too damned inconvenient to deal with.
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facepalm_picard_riker.jpg


also you dont quite "get" the Israeli way of doing things.
 
Steve Levin said:
I was going to write a big long post, but then I realized this quote summed up your entire arguments neatly.
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No, you didn't. You just didn't. You weren't going to write a long post, you haven't read my initial post, and you probably spent more time thinking of what to take out of context to paint me like a Swedish maoist, which I'm not.

Steve Levin said:
Just as two examples...
You don't think Israel handing over 90% of the West Bank isn't pitching in?
You don't think Israel handing over Gaza and forcibly removing Israelis isn't heavy lifting?
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Steve, let me empty your bank account. Eyh, don't get so grumpy, here's a little of it back.

It isn't Israel's to give, and it never was.

Steve Levin said:
You may claim to be logical and neutral, but your viewpoints are extremist and condone violence.
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Steve, I just wrote a FUCKING long post that took me a very long time, to which your only reply is to browse quickly through it until you found a weak sentence, then you went to war and added a conclution there really wasn't anything that hinted at. Grow up, Steve, you're not a fucking kid.

Can I try? You claim to be a friend of Israel, but in reality, you're a muslim fascist and you want to eat every single jew in the world because they taste like chicken. <- That claim is as silly as the claim you just made. Best thing is, you are the only person who doesn't see it.

-

Edit:

rustyknife: Fuck are you on about? Hamas are extremist, they're no fucking wahabbis, but they're extremist, bastard, babykilling fuckers.
 
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I'm not saying they're not extremist, I just want someone to define what extremist is. Why? Because I think that, ironically, Israel would fall under the same definition.
 
Countries aren't extremist, political parties and organisations are.

Netanyahu isn't extremist, he's on the border, but still not. Liberman, though, is, so is his party.
 
Kage said:
Ah, those idiots are at it again. They're always whining about EVERYTHING. I honestly hate them.
They were protesting because a parking lot was open at Saturday..
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Did you watch the documentary "Where in the world is bin laden?" (by the guy that did "Super Size Me")....anyway, he was in Israel presumably one of the more orthodox neighborhoods, and these dudes were like yelling at him telling him to leave. One dude started pushing him. It was pretty crazy.

Clip
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9nb8k5eIaA[/youtube]
 
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Firecat said:
Did you watch the documentary "Where in the world is bin laden?" (by the guy that did "Super Size Me")....anyway, he was in Israel presumably one of the more orthodox neighborhoods, and these dudes were like yelling at him telling him to leave. One dude started pushing him. It was pretty crazy.

Clip
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9nb8k5eIaA[/youtube]
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I haven't seen that before. I doesn't surprise me much. The orthodox Jews are (not all of them) mostly fucking retarded, with their stupid rules and regulations. And mind you, this is coming from a guy that practically lives next to them.
Freeloading bastards. I more than once wanted to go to their protests and smash some faces.
 
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