Gun politics thread

Wouldn't you be able to potentially develop more fruitful, balanced arguments if you posted articles that presents both sides? Even if one doesn't agree with everything in an article, there's always potential to take some basic ideas from them and bring your opinions on how to potentially improve them.

This thread reminds me of trying to argue pro-Apple in the comments section of this YouTube video.
 

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ahpadt said:
Wouldn't you be able to potentially develop more fruitful, balanced arguments if you posted articles that presents both sides? Even if one doesn't agree with everything in an article, there's always potential to take some basic ideas from them and bring your opinions on how to potentially improve them.

This thread reminds me of trying to argue pro-Apple in the comments section of this YouTube video.
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I don't normally post videos, when I do its because someone is saying something that I think but is putting it much better than I could. Essentially I am not trying to support my argument here but illustrate it better. I read/watch quite a bit from both sides and I have actually changed my mind on gun control (used to be pro) with more information.

Problem is that most of the pro control arguments are born out of ignorance, AWB being a perfect example of that. At my core I do not trust the government and its agents, I believe in it's necessity but I don't support giving it more than the absolute minimum of power they require to provide the basic services.
 
ahpadt said:
Wouldn't you be able to potentially develop more fruitful, balanced arguments if you posted articles that presents both sides? Even if one doesn't agree with everything in an article, there's always potential to take some basic ideas from them and bring your opinions on how to potentially improve them.

This thread reminds me of trying to argue pro-Apple in the comments section of this YouTube video.
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All very true. However the various ideas regarding gun control that are going through my head would be too much for this thread. Instead I simply try to provide articles, data, historical context, etc that supports widespread gun ownership in general terms.
 
Federal judge rules Aurora theater shooting was foreseeable

The owner of the Aurora movie theater that was the site of a deadly 2012 attack could have reasonably enough foreseen the danger of such an attack to be held liable for it, a federal judge ruled Friday.

Noting "the grim history of mass shootings and mass killings that have occurred in more recent times," U.S. District Court Judge R. Brooke Jackson ruled that Cinemark ? owner of the Century Aurora 16 theater ? could have predicted that movie patrons might be targeted for an attack. Jackson's ruling allows 20 lawsuits filed by survivors of the attack or relatives of those killed to proceed toward trial.

"Although theaters had theretofore been spared a mass shooting incident, the patrons of a movie theater are, perhaps even more than students in a school or shoppers in a mall, 'sitting ducks,' " Jackson wrote.

Jackson's ruling does not decide the lawsuits' ultimate question: Did Cinemark do enough to try to prevent the shooting? The lawsuits argue Cinemark should have had extra security measures in place to discourage the attack and to stop it more quickly once it began.

Instead, Jackson's ruling denies what is known as a "motion for summary judgment" filed by Cinemark. Similar to a previously denied motion, the theater chain had argued that the lawsuits should be dismissed because the attack was "legally unforeseeable."

The trial is set for February.
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Just a reminder: the theater where the shooting took place was the only one in the area that had "no guns" signs posted.
 
Because psycghos would assume everyone is armed without those signs!


:rolleyes:
 
GRtak said:
Because psycghos would assume everyone is armed without those signs!


:rolleyes:
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You make a common mistake of thinking that someone mentally unstable is also stupid. Mentally unstable people (especially psychos) have shown to be extremely intelligent if an attack is planned out, which was the case with the Batman shooter, do you not think they would take into account how likely resistance is? After all we never see police stations get randomly shot up by some crazy people*, if it were random this would have happened by now would it not?

*Organized crime hits not included obviously.
 
Given the choice of committing a crime in an area that's highly likely to put the offender face to face with armed resistance versus an area where he may in all likelihood reign free... well, that's not much of a choice really.

Regardless how anyone feels about gun ownership, it should be easy to see that criminals will always target victims that are more likely to be defenseless. Now, that's not to say with any absolute certainly that an armed civilian will always be able to stop a criminal in his tracks, but being armed stacks the odds in the potential victim's favor.
 
Chicago crime rate drops as concealed carry applications surge
City sees fewer homicides, robberies, burglaries, car thefts as Illinois residents take arms

An 86-year-old Illinois man with a concealed carry permit fired his weapon at an armed robbery suspect fleeing police last month, stopping the man in his tracks and allowing the police to make an arrest.

Law enforcement authorities described the man as ?a model citizen? who ?helped others avoid being victims? at an AT&T store outside Chicago where he witnessed the holdup. The man, whose identity was withheld from the press, prevented others from entering the store during the theft.

Police said the robber harassed customers and pistol-whipped one.

Since Illinois started granting concealed carry permits this year, the number of robberies that have led to arrests in Chicago has declined 20 percent from last year, according to police department statistics. Reports of burglary and motor vehicle theft are down 20 percent and 26 percent, respectively. In the first quarter, the city?s homicide rate was at a 56-year low.

?It isn?t any coincidence crime rates started to go down when concealed carry was permitted. Just the idea that the criminals don?t know who?s armed and who isn?t has a deterrence effect,? said Richard Pearson, executive director of the Illinois State Rifle Association. ?The police department hasn?t changed a single tactic ? they haven?t announced a shift in policy or of course ? and yet you have these incredible numbers.?

As of July 29 the state had 83,183 applications for concealed carry and had issued 68,549 licenses. By the end of the year, Mr. Pearson estimates, 100,000 Illinois citizens will be packing. When Illinois began processing requests in January, gun training and shooting classes ? which are required for the application ? were filling up before the rifle association was able to schedule them, Mr. Pearson said.

?The temperature would be 40 below, and you?d have these guys out on the range, having to crack off the ice from their guns to see the target,? Mr. Pearson said. ?But they?d do it, because they were that passionate about getting their license.?

The demand has slowed this summer, but Mr. Pearson expects the state to issue about 300,000 concealed carry permits when all is said and done.

Illinois became the 50th state in the nation to issue concealed weapons permits. An individual permit costs about $600 and requires at least 16 hours of classes.

The Chicago Police Department has credited better police work as a reason for the lower crime rates this year. Police Superintendent Garry F. McCarthy noted the confiscation of more than 1,300 illegal guns in the first three months of the year, better police training and ?intelligent policing strategies.?

The Chicago Police Department didn?t respond to a request for comment from The Washington Times.

However, the impact of concealed carry can?t be dismissed. Instead of creating more crimes, which many gun control advocates warn, increased concealed carry rates have coincided with lower rates of crime.

A July study by the Crime Prevention Research Center found that 11.1 million Americans have permits to carry concealed weapons, a 147 percent increase from 4.5 million seven years ago. Meanwhile, homicide and other violent crime rates have dropped by 22 percent.

?There?s a lot of academic research that?s been done on this, and if you look at the peer-reviewed studies, the bottom line is a large majority find a benefit of concealed carry on crime rates ? and, at worst, there?s no cost,? said John Lott Jr., president of the Crime Prevention Research Center based in Swarthmore, Pennsylvania. ?You can deter criminals with longer prison sentences and penalties, but arming people with the right to defend themselves with a gun is also a deterrence.?

Within Illinois, Cook County, which encompasses Chicago, has the state?s largest number of concealed carry applications, with 28,552 requests, according to the county?s website. Accounting for population, however, less than 1 percent are carrying.

Mason County has the top per-capita rate in Illinois, with 14 percent of its residents holding concealed carry licenses, followed by Shelby County, with 9 percent.

?When I talk to folks that are supporters of concealed carry here, a lot of them want to get their permits so they can keep a gun in the car just so they have it when they travel to bigger towns and cities,? said Shelby County Sheriff Michael Miller.

Shelby County is in southwestern Illinois, about an hour and 45 minutes driving time from St. Louis. Its crime rate is low, and the majority of charges are domestic-related, Sheriff Miller said. He doesn?t anticipate concealed carry to change the statistics much.

?These are folks who just want to exercise their Second Amendment rights,? Sheriff Miller said. ?Luckily, we don?t have a gang problem or any serious violent crime. Our types are just rednecks that like to hunt and fish.?

Mason County Sheriff Paul Gann said it?s too early to tell whether an increased carry rate will have an influence on crime rates.

?What I can tell you is we haven?t seen a spike in crime,? said Mr. Gann. ?We haven?t seen a spike in anything that?s gun-related ? brandishing a firearm, shootings, robberies, nothing. These are law-abiding individuals.?

From a national perspective, Florida has the most active concealed carry permits, at nearly 1.3 million. Texas is second, with just over 708,000. Hawaii, at 183, has the fewest of states whose data were available.

At 300,000 concealed carry licenses, Illinois would compare with Virginia, which has 363,274, and Alabama, with 379,917.
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:whistle:
 
prizrak said:
You make a common mistake of thinking that someone mentally unstable is also stupid. Mentally unstable people (especially psychos) have shown to be extremely intelligent if an attack is planned out, which was the case with the Batman shooter, do you not think they would take into account how likely resistance is? After all we never see police stations get randomly shot up by some crazy people*, if it were random this would have happened by now would it not?

*Organized crime hits not included obviously.
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Google has a list of articles that disagree, although, not all are pshychos.
 
GRtak said:
Google has a list of articles that disagree, although, not all are pshychos.
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Wanna post some? I'm talking about batman like mass shootings though, where hurting a large number of people was the sole intent. Sure there were plenty of attacks against specific locations, Columbine one of the more infamous examples.
 
thedailybeast said:
The NRA Pissed Off the Wrong Nerd Genius
Billionaire Michael Bloomberg already had the gun lobby in his sights. Now Bill Gates is donating $1 million for universal background checks?and there?s more where that came from.
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More at the source

Since it's a big article I don't want to c/p the entire thing but did he really not have anything better to spend his money on?
 
I'm speechless, too. But an Uzi? I know from own experience that a real Uzi has almost no recoil...
 
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