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The Israel / Palestine mire (again)

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    tigger, Jim already covered it but in the broader sense what is stopping "Palestinians" from simply seeking representation in the Knesset and rest of government and simply living side by the side with the Jews?
    ScarFace88 - "So you're a dildo?"

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      Originally posted by JimCorrigan View Post
      It’s not Israel’s fault that Gaza’s shared border with Egypt is closed.
      Eh, sure it is. Israel built that fucking kettle that is Gaza. Why does Eqypt support that blockade? Because the US is Israel's ally, to a fucking fault, and Egypt just wants some of that sweet sweet military aid. That's most of it. You can add that Egypt doesn't want Hamas/Hezbollah whoever in their backyard ... but they've been dealing with that shit for what, 50 years?

      Hell you can argue modern Islamic extremism started in Egypt. Maybe Gaza should blockade them. Anyway.

      Originally posted by JimCorrigan
      It’s not Israel’s fault that in the ten years since they left Gaza to its own devices ... Israel has continued to allowed for humanitarian aid and supples to go through that border.
      So they've been left to their own devices ... but there's a blockade. Humanitarian aid is great and all but it doesn't pay the bills. Doesn't make a government function. Doesn't rebuild hospitals and schools. Doesn't employ the thousands of angry young men who've grown up getting told their being fucked by Israel. And then they see themselves actually getting fucked by Israel.

      You don't defeat an insurgency by making day to day life worse. That's been proven over and over and over ... and fucking over. Israel's doing it wrong. Quit supporting bad policy. Oh, and supporting unarmed people getting shot. I think that point got lost in your response. Please justify shooting unarmed people rattling a fucking fence.

      Originally posted by JimCorrigan
      I never defended Israeli settlements, but guess what? There are none in Gaza. The settlements are all in the West Bank, and there were no attempts at border rushing there. I wonder why that could be....? (Hint: read below)
      Dude, don't get fucking sanctimonious. Think through the situation. Think about the socioeconomic situations. How people can be wound up. Go ahead with that mental exercise and see if you can answer your own questions there.

      Originally posted by JimCorrigan
      53 of 60 killed were members if Hamas or ISIS, all confirmed by their respective groups. Hamas pays money to civilians if they get shot rushing the border, and a bonus to the family if civilians are killed.
      Sure. ISIS and Hamas fight with each other to claim who did what. But for your second point, if Hamas is paying people to rush the border you need to ask yourself why that's so appealing. Yeah, they fucking hate Israel. But they need to eat. Their families need to eat. That's a much more immediate need.

      Originally posted by JimCorrigan
      Only a fool would deny the complicated, tortuous history of the middle-east and fail to recognize either side their just grievances. But this particular excursion clearly can be blamed only at Hamas’ feet. And only a fool would deny the clear, stated evidence that support these facts in order to merely buy into the lazily researched, knee-jerk mainstream media narrative.
      "Oh the facts are so clear ... but you're a fucking idiot if you don't agree with me!"

      Really? Reeeaalllyyy? If you're just gonna be a blind partisan, what's the point of this?

      Originally posted by prizrak View Post
      ... what is stopping "Palestinians" from simply seeking representation in the Knesset and rest of government and simply living side by the side with the Jews?
      Well Gaza is outside Israeli sovereignty, at least for the purposes of elections. And Palestinians in the West Bank, correct me if I'm wrong, can't vote in Israeli elections. They can vote for local West Bank shit, but Israel generally controls taxation and budgets in the West Bank.
      Last edited by tigger; May 27th, 2018, 5:16 AM.
      Saying smaller engines are better is like saying you don't want huge muscles because you wouldn't fit through the door. So what? You can bench 500. Fuck doors. - MadCat360

      Comment


        Originally posted by tigger View Post
        Well Gaza is outside Israeli sovereignty, at least for the purposes of elections. And Palestinians in the West Bank, correct me if I'm wrong, can't vote in Israeli elections. They can vote for local West Bank shit, but Israel generally controls taxation and budgets in the West Bank.
        Certainly but a lot of it is historically due to Palestinians complete and utter lack of acceptance of Israel and any two state proposals over the years. I'm sure if a joint state with joint representation was proposed and followed through Israel would embrace it, if for no other reason than it being way too god damn expensive to deal with all this crap on daily basis.

        I find the whole thing retarded, Jews and Arabs are literally same fucking people that shit's even in the Torah. I understand that the Sykes-Pikot fucked middle east up to the point where we might not ever recover but at minimum Israel/Palestine bullshit should have been put to rest 70 years ago by making a joint government.
        ScarFace88 - "So you're a dildo?"

        Comment


          Originally posted by tigger View Post
          Eh, sure it is. Israel built that fucking kettle that is Gaza. Why does Eqypt support that blockade? Because the US is Israel's ally, to a fucking fault, and Egypt just wants some of that sweet sweet military aid. That's most of it. You can add that Egypt doesn't want Hamas/Hezbollah whoever in their backyard ... but they've been dealing with that shit for what, 50 years?

          Hell you can argue modern Islamic extremism started in Egypt. Maybe Gaza should blockade them. Anyway.
          Again, how is that Israel's fault?

          Regardless, it refutes the notion that Israel has Gazans "caged."

          Originally posted by tigger View Post
          So they've been left to their own devices ... but there's a blockade. Humanitarian aid is great and all but it doesn't pay the bills. Doesn't make a government function. Doesn't rebuild hospitals and schools. Doesn't employ the thousands of angry young men who've grown up getting told their being fucked by Israel. And then they see themselves actually getting fucked by Israel.

          You don't defeat an insurgency by making day to day life worse. That's been proven over and over and over ... and fucking over. Israel's doing it wrong. Quit supporting bad policy. Oh, and supporting unarmed people getting shot. I think that point got lost in your response. Please justify shooting unarmed people rattling a fucking fence.
          Maybe not having a government whose charter includes genocide would be a good start.

          I'm not supporting any policy, other than Israel's right to protect itself from attack. The fact pattern here is clear:
          1. Hamas paying families
          2. Hamas declaring they want Jews to burn
          3. Hamas openly declaring they're gonna storm the border.

          What don't you understand?

          Originally posted by tigger View Post
          Dude, don't get fucking sanctimonious. Think through the situation. Think about the socioeconomic situations. How people can be wound up. Go ahead with that mental exercise and see if you can answer your own questions there.
          You can call me sanctimonious all you like. It doesn't change the facts (there's that dirty word again) that there are no settlements along Gaza, and where there are settlements in the West Bank, which is not Hamas territory, there were no border rushes.

          Originally posted by tigger View Post
          Sure. ISIS and Hamas fight with each other to claim who did what. But for your second point, if Hamas is paying people to rush the border you need to ask yourself why that's so appealing. Yeah, they fucking hate Israel. But they need to eat. Their families need to eat. That's a much more immediate need.
          Israel isn't stopping these people from eating. Again, their government has received untold millions in funds and UN humanitarian aid. Rushing the border of a country they have been told not to enter isn't going to get them fed, or taken care of, and they know that.


          Originally posted by tigger View Post
          "Oh the facts are so clear ... but you're a fucking idiot if you don't agree with me!"

          Really? Reeeaalllyyy? If you're just gonna be a blind partisan, what's the point of this?
          Go back and look at my post history in the political section You'll find I'm hardly partisan. I don't care much for Israeli settlements in the West Bank, for example. Again, I made it pretty clear there is blame on both sides for the long term travesty that is the middle east.

          But this particular incident is all Hamas' doing. The facts, as stated by me many times over the past week or so, clearly show it. And so unless you can refute them with something other than an emotional tirade, let it be known that the partisan, the person arguing from emotion and not logic, isn't me.
          Last edited by JimCorrigan; May 28th, 2018, 9:51 PM.
          Originally posted by tigger
          The Lord spoke, "Let there be angry V8s, whistling turbos and big ass cams." And it was good.

          Comment


            https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.e285464b6a2a
            Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip fired more than 50 rockets and mortar shells into Israel on Tuesday
            One of the mortars in the first round of fire early Tuesday struck the yard of a kindergarten
            In response to Tuesday’s escalation, he said, the military hit military targets in Gaza and destroyed an additional tunnel built to attack Israel. Conricus said the tunnel was unusual in that it snaked under Gaza’s southern border into Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula and then made a U-turn back into Israel. He said it was the 10th tunnel discovered and destroyed by Israel since October.
            It's just some civilians along a fence bruh...
            Last edited by prizrak; May 29th, 2018, 4:45 PM.
            ScarFace88 - "So you're a dildo?"

            Comment


              Yes, pick out the best of the worst to reinforce your narrative. How about this part from the same article.

              Tensions have been soaring between Israel and Gaza for the past few months. Residents of the coastal enclave, which has been under land and sea blockade by Israel and Egypt since Hamas wrestled power over the strip more than a decade ago, have been holding weekly demonstrations at the Israeli border fence. They are demanding a right to return to land that now sits inside Israel and expressing frustration over a growing humanitarian crisis in what they describe as an open-air prison.

              Earlier this month, on just one day of the protests, Israeli forces killed more than 60 Gazans, prompting harsh criticism from around the world over what critics said were heavy-handed tactics by Israel. Thousands of people were also injured by Israeli snipers.

              On Tuesday, a fleet of about 65 boats set sail from Gaza, attempting to break through Israel’s sea blockade to take some of those injured in the demonstrations abroad for medical treatment. Israel has not granted permits to all of the injured to cross into the other Palestinian territory on the West Bank for treatment. Hospitals in Gaza say they cannot cope with the high number of people who need medical care.

              Nobody ever said that there weren't attacks made by the Palestinians, but you can't deny that they have something to protest. What would you do if you were kicked off your land and told you can't go back to it?
              "I don't care who does the electing, so long as I get to do the nominating" -Boss Tweed

              We’ve gone from 'Hope and Change' to 'Hope and Change Your Story.' -Bill Maher

              Comment


                I picked out the parts that clearly illustrate aggression on the part of the militants in Gaza, in this current cycle was anything done by Israel that was not in response to actions from the Gazans? Yes Israel retaliated, to aggression from the other side. Also why are there no harsh criticisms of Palestinians launching rockets/mortars into Israel?

                What would you do if you were kicked off your land and told you can't go back to it?
                Do you remember how they got kicked off? They attacked a *UN created* state of Israel and got their asses dominated by a country that was 3 days old.

                Imagine that Mexico tried to pull this shit in CA or TX how quickly we would level the entire place with massive invasion force? Yet those are former Mexican territories...
                ScarFace88 - "So you're a dildo?"

                Comment


                  The response was not proportional, and that has been the point I have been trying to make all along. They clearly have a right protest( that is a natural right in my opinion), and an issue to protest.

                  "I don't care who does the electing, so long as I get to do the nominating" -Boss Tweed

                  We’ve gone from 'Hope and Change' to 'Hope and Change Your Story.' -Bill Maher

                  Comment


                    And again you have not said what a proportional response should have been. They can peacefully protest, throwing rocks and burning tires over the border to another country as well as trying to rush the fence (or at minimum claiming to) is not peaceful. Again imagine this happening to ANY other sovereign country that is not Israel, no one would say shit.
                    ScarFace88 - "So you're a dildo?"

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by GRtak View Post
                      The response was not proportional, and that has been the point I have been trying to make all along. They clearly have a right protest( that is a natural right in my opinion), and an issue to protest.
                      They're not protesting, as has been proven already by Hamas' own stated goals for these events.

                      GRtak, if you won't shoot the invader approaching your house (as per my previous example), instead of "not making him a martyr" (your words), what would you do?
                      Originally posted by tigger
                      The Lord spoke, "Let there be angry V8s, whistling turbos and big ass cams." And it was good.

                      Comment


                        You want to insist on playing that game? How would you protest if you were in the Palestinian's place? I think that says a lot about you too.
                        "I don't care who does the electing, so long as I get to do the nominating" -Boss Tweed

                        We’ve gone from 'Hope and Change' to 'Hope and Change Your Story.' -Bill Maher

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by GRtak View Post
                          You want to insist on playing that game? How would you protest if you were in the Palestinian's place? I think that says a lot about you too.
                          It's not a game. You implied Israel was at fault. I countered as to why they are not in this case. So far you've done nothing to refute my position other than deflect and play to emotion.

                          Back to the hypothetical that you've failed to answer thus far:

                          He's at your door. He's already killed your chickens. He's lobbed molotovs onto your yard. He's written city council about how he wants you and your entire family dead.

                          What. Would. You. Do?

                          (You'll notice I don't impugn motive on your would be killer here, because guess what? It doesn't matter)

                          Is that the doorbell?
                          Last edited by JimCorrigan; May 30th, 2018, 12:26 AM.
                          Originally posted by tigger
                          The Lord spoke, "Let there be angry V8s, whistling turbos and big ass cams." And it was good.

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