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    BRexit : Shall UK stay in EU or go now?

    EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

    The UK will vote on whether to remain in the EU on Thursday 23 June, Prime Minister David Cameron has said.
    www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-35621079

    The UK's EU referendum: All you need to know
    www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887

    Time to vote for real change, says Boris Johnson
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-...endum-35626621

    EU exit could trigger demand for Scottish independence referendum
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-...itics-35625067
    see also
    https://forums.finalgear.com/politic...hlight=kingdom

    https://forums.finalgear.com/politic...hlight=kingdom

    Why Michael Gove is wrong on Europe
    https://medium.com/idea-of-europe/wh...23b#.q0bdx1612


    #Brexit
    https://twitter.com/hashtag/Brexit?src=hash
















    Last edited by jack_christie; February 21st, 2016, 10:38 PM.
    Team Black Jack

    __________________________

    So, that's all good.

    #2
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...nion-ever.html

    Shall UK stay in EU or go now?

    beautiful language - milk&water - baseball vs. football - best god in show

    Comment


      #3
      Cameron went after the wrong things in his negotiations.

      1. He should have told them if they have their account qualified for something like the 25 time we will not feel obliged to pay - after all where is the money going?
      2. No thansaction tax that, let us face facts, will only be paid for by London really - why would the EU try to destroy one of its own industries? Answer on a post card please.

      Anyway even if you are not for Brexit then you should still vote leave as the EU will come back with better terms and we'll have another go at voting only with a better deal. That has been their approach to all issues when countries have not voted for something.

      Now the Scots want another go at leaving the UK if we vote to leave as they want to stay - God alone knows why, and the Irish have a problem in that their major trading partner, by far, is the UK and if we leave that puts then in a bit of a pickle. But if you are Irish do not worry that will be the first trad deal done by the UK government.

      Now one question is 8 Billion GBP, do we really get value for money, no really?

      Politicians - pah, they were the fools who got us into this mess in the first place. I agree with InterrgoBang, our heart has never been in this. Having said that very few people remember the time before we were in, its not like we are actually on our own, we are great mates with most of the Commonwealth who will help if only a little bit.
      Last edited by Cobol74; February 22nd, 2016, 12:43 PM.

      Comment


        #4
        relevant.


        beautiful language - milk&water - baseball vs. football - best god in show

        Comment


          #5
          The idea that the United Kingdom would leave the European Union scares me. I've always been ambivalent towards Norwegian membership, but once you're in, it sends a big message leaving.

          It will cost jobs. On the continent. And in the UK. And in Norway.
          "If you're not getting the picture you want, you're not close enough" - Robert Capa
          "Your first 14000 pictures are your worst" - HCB
          - David Bailey! Who's he?!
          I am one of "the two most level headed and pragmatic regular posters on the politics forum" according to anonymous sources.
          blog
          Bustin' chops since the late 80s

          Comment


            #6
            I have no clue about UKs internal politics, but from an external politic perspective I can assure that Vladimir Putin is getting all giddy about Brexit talks. UK leaving would weaken Europe and that's exactly what Russia wants.

            Comment


              #7
              According to some German newspapers, Britain would suffer because they would still need to do trade with the continent but would no longer have any influence over EU politics and trade laws and such. However, Britain would also regain some form of independence and control about where its money is being spent.

              To me the EU has become the one thing it didn't set out to be: a union where money is sunk into countries that couldn't handle the Euro. Greece is a bottomless pit that goes through money faster than a drunk in vegas. Most of the southern countries aren't doing too well either. And instead of having to stand on their own feet there are a lot of countries that are quite happy to receive money from the EU for... not taking any refugees for example. But don't worry, we just give 3 billion Euros to Turkey so they keep all the refugees, and maybe even let them join the EU too, even though two *very* different ideals are going to collide, and one of them doesn't take prisoners (or is tolerant in any way whatsoever).

              Also, the administration in Brussels seems like a giant waste of time and money. And why go to Brussels in the first place? There are much cheaper cities to live and work in than Brussels. And at least for Germany is was almost always the case that only politicians that could no longer "make it at home" were sent to Brussels. Basically people that nobody wanted around anymore but somehow nobody had the heart to tell them, so instead they are sent on a permanent and well paid "vacation".

              And what do the people in Brussels usually come up with? Some bullshit regulations that interfers with national law and therefore has to go in front of multiple courts, which costs money, the tax payer's money. Also, drafting these regulations also costs a lot of time and therefore money (because people want to get paid), and guess whose money that is? Yep, the tax payer once again...

              So by all means, if Britain feels like leaving the EU, who can really blame them? It's not like things have gone wrong over night. It's been like this for years. Too many weak members that couldn't carry the Euro (or themself, for that matter), too much regulation and too much crazy money spending.

              I know that I still benefit from the well-being of the EU, but it's also nice to live in a country that still has some resemblance of independence. Granted, due to the Schengen-contract, Switzerland is affected by some EU legislations, but by far not as bad as some other countries. And I never got the feeling of "hey, this guy is giving away my money", because, well, you don't really pay that much tax here (and somehow, the country is still going and actually doing quite well, partly because money doesn't have to be wasted on paying up old loans and interest).
              Last edited by CD82; February 22nd, 2016, 9:13 PM.

              Comment


                #8
                Cobol74's post is a prime example of what I don't like about the UK. They're cherrypickers and have absolutely no interest in Europe beyond their own direct economic gain. Perhaps that's the effect of living on an island, not on the main continent itself. The value of peaceful collaboration and open borders itself is perhaps something you don't come to appreciate if you have to cross the sea anyway to get into another country.
                So I'm inclined to wish them good riddance and be done with it. Yes. that sounds a bit bitter.

                But despite all their special treatment, losing the UK and with it the economic and geopolitical weight it provides would be a huge loss for the EU, and losing the EU would be a huge loss in the same terms for the UK. Also, in the current political climate, such a large nation leaving would massively destabilize the EU. I honestly fear it would mean the end of the European Union, leading to a frosty political climate on this lovely continent of many, many nations that are currently on their way back to nationalism.
                And an unstable and hostile-to-each-other Europe can't be in anyone's interest (well, except Russia and the like, of course).

                Then there's the question of the Scottish independence movement which could stir up again in the wake of a Brexit.

                I concur that the EU desperately needs some reform. The UK should stay and work towards making the EU better. But that would require them to widen their view, lose the ecocentric perspective.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Yeah there is a lot of cherry picking going on. Britain knows that it's important to the EU so they can make quite a few demands, also because the threat of leaving isn't just an idle threat (according to some polls it's close to 50-50 for leaving vs staying).

                  Just imagine if Germany tried to pull the same stunt. Simple answer: Shut up, you lost WW2, so stay and pay. And you know what? It would work, because we are guilt-tripped so easily.

                  Honestly, I don't know if the EU is salvageable. Maybe if it lost some less important members, and quite a bit of its administrative overhead (and tendency to try and regulate just about everything).
                  Last edited by CD82; February 22nd, 2016, 9:18 PM.

                  Comment


                    #10














                    Team Black Jack

                    __________________________

                    So, that's all good.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      jack_christie, what do you want to tell us with your posts of massive pictures of newspapers but without writing anything in your own words?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by CD82 View Post
                        [...] (and tendency to try and regulate just about everything).

                        beautiful language - milk&water - baseball vs. football - best god in show

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The US, China, Russia, Japan, India, Brasil, Indonesia, Iran...

                          But then again, the outsiders: Canada, Australia, Argentina, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Nigeria, Mexico, and many more.

                          When the big players in the world game are either at least thrice as wide as the UK, or at least twice as populated, or full of resources, or all of the three, I don't think the UK is doing themselves a favour by isolating away.

                          And when the very influent players usually live at least over or well over the 1 mln square miles and over or well over the 100 mln population, I don't think any of the puny european countries could actually hope to win any influence race against those monsters by playing on its own.

                          Is the EU not working well now? Yes, for sure. Is leaving it and destroying it the smartest answer? Only if you are as shortsighted as a blind mouse.

                          My opinion, of course.
                          Going fast out of rage, pride or boredom is like buying a ticket to crash.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            A little over a hundered years ago, the issue of tariff reforms wrecked the Tory party.

                            I wonder if this issue will wreck the current Tory party.
                            "If you're not getting the picture you want, you're not close enough" - Robert Capa
                            "Your first 14000 pictures are your worst" - HCB
                            - David Bailey! Who's he?!
                            I am one of "the two most level headed and pragmatic regular posters on the politics forum" according to anonymous sources.
                            blog
                            Bustin' chops since the late 80s

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by DanRoM View Post
                              Cobol74's post is a prime example of what I don't like about the UK. They're cherrypickers and have absolutely no interest in Europe beyond their own direct economic gain. Perhaps that's the effect of living on an island, not on the main continent itself. The value of peaceful collaboration and open borders itself is perhaps something you don't come to appreciate if you have to cross the sea anyway to get into another country.
                              So I'm inclined to wish them good riddance and be done with it. Yes. that sounds a bit bitter.

                              But despite all their special treatment, losing the UK and with it the economic and geopolitical weight it provides would be a huge loss for the EU, and losing the EU would be a huge loss in the same terms for the UK. Also, in the current political climate, such a large nation leaving would massively destabilize the EU. I honestly fear it would mean the end of the European Union, leading to a frosty political climate on this lovely continent of many, many nations that are currently on their way back to nationalism.
                              And an unstable and hostile-to-each-other Europe can't be in anyone's interest (well, except Russia and the like, of course).

                              Then there's the question of the Scottish independence movement which could stir up again in the wake of a Brexit.

                              I concur that the EU desperately needs some reform. The UK should stay and work towards making the EU better. But that would require them to widen their view, lose the ecocentric perspective.
                              Everyone gets something out of it.

                              When we joined 26% of our economy was manufacturing and that was how it was sold boost manufacturing, it is more like 13% now - so it's been a big success for our major exporters then. ...

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by DanRoM View Post
                                jack_christie, what do you want to tell us with your posts of massive pictures of newspapers but without writing anything in your own words?
                                On what may be historic days, the contrasting headlines are interesting. They illustrate they battles for: EU membership, Conseravtive leader, for PM and the likely break up of the UK.
                                Team Black Jack

                                __________________________

                                So, that's all good.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Cobol74 View Post
                                  Everyone gets something out of it.

                                  When we joined 26% of our economy was manufacturing and that was how it was sold boost manufacturing, it is more like 13% now - so it's been a big success for our major exporters then. ...
                                  Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
                                  "If you're not getting the picture you want, you're not close enough" - Robert Capa
                                  "Your first 14000 pictures are your worst" - HCB
                                  - David Bailey! Who's he?!
                                  I am one of "the two most level headed and pragmatic regular posters on the politics forum" according to anonymous sources.
                                  blog
                                  Bustin' chops since the late 80s

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Having a common market is good. Open borders as well. I'm talking about stupid shit like having a norm for bananas and cucumbers, or having a regulation that children under eight years old must be supervised by an adult if they want to blow up a balloon. I know some of these never make it past the drafting stage, but even then somebody sunk time into developing a draft and maybe having a couple of meetings.

                                    Granted, companies also do R&D in strange areas and some projects make it quite far before they are stopped for whatever reason. The point is - that's company money, and at the end of the day (or year) the company still has to turn out a profit. Meanwhile, governments have no real incentive to be economical - if they need more money they can simply "ask" the tax payer to kindly fork some more cash over so that they may spend it on thinking about more bullshit. And who in their right mind would point out that "we don't this regulation" when their job is to come up with regulations? Guess what, if you have a clever boss they will fire your ass because they realized they don't need you any more. So what do the good people do that were employed to regulate stuff? If only out of self-preserveration, they'll come up with stuff that need to be regulated asap.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Cobol74 View Post
                                      Everyone gets something out of it.

                                      When we joined 26% of our economy was manufacturing and that was how it was sold boost manufacturing, it is more like 13% now - so it's been a big success for our major exporters then. ...
                                      Haven't China, Korea, Indonesia, India, the entire low-cost Asian south-west and the beautiful implementation of production delocalization more to do with this fall than the EU?
                                      Going fast out of rage, pride or boredom is like buying a ticket to crash.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Let's not forget official government policy for the last, what, 35 years?
                                        "If you're not getting the picture you want, you're not close enough" - Robert Capa
                                        "Your first 14000 pictures are your worst" - HCB
                                        - David Bailey! Who's he?!
                                        I am one of "the two most level headed and pragmatic regular posters on the politics forum" according to anonymous sources.
                                        blog
                                        Bustin' chops since the late 80s

                                        Comment

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