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The Trump Presidency - how I stopped worrying and learned to love the Hair

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    Originally posted by prizrak View Post
    But Lev's point (and one I agree with) is that EOs in themselves are a problem. They are very difficult to override and have too much power on their own.
    The point both of you are missing are the need for EOs in light of a Congress that is outright obstructionist. It would be one thing if the president bypasses the Congress and signs surprise EOs (Trump) but it's quite another when everyone is made aware of the President's desired plans, hopes Congress can carry out those plans but is forced to carry them out himself because the GOP is too obsessed with partisan politics than the good of the people.

    I blame the assholes Mitch McConnell, Boehner, and Paul Ryan for Obama's EOs, not Obama. Besides he made signed fewer EOs than both Bush and Clinton. Hating Obama because of his EOs is another veil for racism, plain and simple.
    Originally posted by MadCat360
    You've never driven your car hard and you never will. Only a professional racing driver can drive a car hard. Everyone else sucks.

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      Originally posted by _HighVoltage_ View Post
      But companies like Apple, Google, Tesla, etc. employ engineers and scientists from universities.
      Umm.. In the sense that those people have gone to universities, yes. But they are not still in a university. Also if I'm reading this correctly (and I might not be) this only applies to actual government agencies.
      ScarFace88 - "So you're a dildo?"

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        Originally posted by prizrak View Post
        Umm.. In the sense that those people have gone to universities, yes. But they are not still in a university. Also if I'm reading this correctly (and I might not be) this only applies to actual government agencies.
        Yes, so far...I mean, it's only been a week

        The point is, if the administration continues on its current path of gagging scientists and proposing to vet research, it will impact universities, and that in turn will impact students and their research. A lot of graduate students in engineering and the scientists work as assistants and they depend on the research of the lead professor. If the government gags the lead professor, or tells him/her what they should/should not be researching, that also channels down to the students, which upon graduation are recruited by companies like Apple, Tesla and others.

        Most progress in science happens as a result of the freedom to explore and test new ideas and concepts. If the governments starts to decide the direction of scientific research (and block some of it), we will be in trouble. Bigly.
        "It's the difference between watching great sex and having good sex." - Labcoatguy on the difference between an automatic and a manual gearbox.

        Comment


          Originally posted by prizrak View Post
          Umm.. In the sense that those people have gone to universities, yes. But they are not still in a university. Also if I'm reading this correctly (and I might not be) this only applies to actual government agencies.
          Corporate researchers collaborate with university researchers all the time (I've been on both sides of this). In the US, a huge amount of funding for graduate research comes from NSF and DOE grants. My own studies made heavy use of DOE-funded facilities.
          "It's not long enough to use in bed." -rickhamilton620

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            Originally posted by Eye-Q View Post
            Yeah, but up until now everybody equated alternative facts with lies while it should read opinions. The problem is that his opinions are so cemented that he sees them as alternative facts.
            I always read it that way actually, that he treated his opinions as facts.

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by Cellos88GT View Post
            The point both of you are missing are the need for EOs in light of a Congress that is outright obstructionist. It would be one thing if the president bypasses the Congress and signs surprise EOs (Trump) but it's quite another when everyone is made aware of the President's desired plans, hopes Congress can carry out those plans but is forced to carry them out himself because the GOP is too obsessed with partisan politics than the good of the people.

            I blame the assholes Mitch McConnell, Boehner, and Paul Ryan for Obama's EOs, not Obama. Besides he made signed fewer EOs than both Bush and Clinton.
            No that's the thing, you are missing our point. The EO has too much power period, currently this is how an EO would have to be bypassed:
            1) Congress passes a law that invalidates the EO
            2) President vetos the law (for obvious reason)
            3) Congress has to override the veto with 2/3 majority vote

            As you can imagine #3 is quite difficult to achieve and is not hugely likely.
            Hating Obama because of his EOs is another veil for racism, plain and simple.
            I don't think Lev said he hates Obama over EOs, I know I certainly don't the point both of us are making is that EOs are too powerful.

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by chaos386 View Post
            Corporate researchers collaborate with university researchers all the time (I've been on both sides of this). In the US, a huge amount of funding for graduate research comes from NSF and DOE grants. My own studies made heavy use of DOE-funded facilities.
            I am well aware but again for the time being the restriction is only on scientists working for government agencies not government funded "private" research or even government owned universities (though there are no Fed owned unis far as I know)

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by _HighVoltage_ View Post
            Yes, so far...I mean, it's only been a week

            The point is, if the administration continues on its current path of gagging scientists and proposing to vet research, it will impact universities, and that in turn will impact students and their research. A lot of graduate students in engineering and the scientists work as assistants and they depend on the research of the lead professor. If the government gags the lead professor, or tells him/her what they should/should not be researching, that also channels down to the students, which upon graduation are recruited by companies like Apple, Tesla and others.

            Most progress in science happens as a result of the freedom to explore and test new ideas and concepts. If the governments starts to decide the direction of scientific research (and block some of it), we will be in trouble. Bigly.
            No argument on any of that but do keep in mind that this is not unprecedented and we still have some science left
            ScarFace88 - "So you're a dildo?"

            Comment


              Originally posted by Eye-Q View Post
              Yeah, but up until now everybody equated alternative facts with lies while it should read opinions.
              You are wrong (or alternate correct ) here. There is no such thing as an opinion over numbers, for instance.

              Trumps strategy, assuming he has one and isn't just a bambling madman (and I can't decide which is worse), is a plain and simple Denial of Service attack on the people trying to correct his false statements. The goal is to make everyone so busy with fending off his bullshit that nobody has the capacity to resist his policies in a meaningful manner.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Cellos88GT View Post
                Hating Obama because of his EOs is another veil for racism, plain and simple.
                Wait, what? The reason you don't understand checks and balances and are being an ignorant hypocrite is... racism?
                "Men with guts attack those corners!" - Keiichi Tsuchiya
                2006 Acura TL and 1999 Mazda Miata

                Comment


                  I haven't seen the whole video/interview, but am I wrong in thinking that "alternative facts" was probably a term that was thought up and practiced to mean something like, "Sure, oranges have a lot of sugar, but they also are a good source of Vitamin C"...but instead it got turned around and used at the wrong time?
                  There is no such thing as a stupid question.* *but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by NecroJoe View Post
                    I haven't seen the whole video/interview, but am I wrong in thinking that "alternative facts" was probably a term that was thought up and practiced to mean something like, "Sure, oranges have a lot of sugar, but they also are a good source of Vitamin C"...but instead it got turned around and used at the wrong time?
                    I think you're giving Conway too much credit. There's enough of a pause while she's speaking that she probably just came up with it on the fly as a shitty excuse (video starts at 1:34):



                    Originally posted by Todd-Conway Interview Transcript
                    Todd: You did not answer the question of why the President asked the White House press secretary to come out in front of the podium, for the first time, and utter a falsehood. Why did he do that? It undermines the credibility of the entire White House press office -

                    Conway: No, it doesn't.

                    Todd: -on day one.

                    Conway: Don't be so- Don't be so overly dramatic about it, Chuck. What it- You're saying it's a falsehood, and they're giving- Sean Spicer, our press secretary, gave...alternative facts to that. But the point remains-

                    Todd: Wait a minute-

                    Conway: -that there's-

                    Todd: Alternative facts?! Alternative facts? Four of the five facts he uttered-

                    Conway: Hey, Chuck, why- Hey Chuck-

                    Todd: The one thing he got right was Zeke Miller - Four of the five facts he uttered were just not true. Look, alternative facts are not facts; they're falsehoods.
                    To me, it seems pretty clear that it wasn't practiced, she was just trying to deflect without admitting Spicer lied.
                    2013 Dodge Dart 1.4T Limited 6spd First car! 12/2012 -
                    2013 FIAT 500 Pop Second/Girlfriend's Car! 03/2014 -
                    2003 Ford Ranger XLT Supercab 10/2016 -

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by MacGuffin View Post
                      Surely you don't expect other countries to go down with America, do you? A friendship only ever works if both sides do their part of keeping it alive.
                      The entire relationship between the EU and Greece is build on faked numbers and the EU paying Greece a lot of money (which they might as well just pour into a bottomless pit for all the good it's doing the EU, and the chances of seeing any of that money again, like ever, are zero if not even negative). So yes, a friendship can actually be very one-sided and abusive, even in politics. Especially if the abused side is lacking any spine whatsoever.

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                          Originally posted by narf View Post
                          "It's the difference between watching great sex and having good sex." - Labcoatguy on the difference between an automatic and a manual gearbox.

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                            Originally posted by _HighVoltage_ View Post
                            DAMMIT I CAME HERE TO POST THAT!
                            Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?

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                              Originally posted by prizrak View Post
                              No that's the thing, you are missing our point. The EO has too much power period, currently this is how an EO would have to be bypassed:
                              1) Congress passes a law that invalidates the EO
                              2) President vetos the law (for obvious reason)
                              3) Congress has to override the veto with 2/3 majority vote

                              As you can imagine #3 is quite difficult to achieve and is not hugely likely.
                              I personally don't fault Obama's use of EOs given the cards he was dealt. Trump on the other hand does not have those same cards dealt, he doesn't deserve EO use, he's a self-righteous prick. I don't care if I'm viewed as a hypocrite because of this, Trump is not fit for this job and has no clue what he's doing.
                              Originally posted by MadCat360
                              You've never driven your car hard and you never will. Only a professional racing driver can drive a car hard. Everyone else sucks.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by PelicanHazard View Post
                                I think you're giving Conway too much credit. There's enough of a pause while she's speaking that she probably just came up with it on the fly as a shitty excuse (video starts at 1:34):
                                I guess she wanted to say "alternative views", but then her brain just mashed the "alternative" and the foregoing debate about "facts" together which makes it hilarious...
                                Why E10? I'm driving E46...

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by Cellos88GT View Post
                                  I personally don't fault Obama's use of EOs given the cards he was dealt. Trump on the other hand does not have those same cards dealt, he doesn't deserve EO use, he's a self-righteous prick. I don't care if I'm viewed as a hypocrite because of this, Trump is not fit for this job and has no clue what he's doing.
                                  But see that's irrelevant, if you believe EO power is too much because it can be used to circumvent checks and balances, then such power cannot be justified. Even if it has been used responsibly by some people.
                                  ScarFace88 - "So you're a dildo?"

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by prizrak View Post
                                    But see that's irrelevant, if you believe EO power is too much because it can be used to circumvent checks and balances, then such power cannot be justified. Even if it has been used responsibly by some people.
                                    I guess it only takes one person to ruin it for everybody.
                                    Originally posted by MadCat360
                                    You've never driven your car hard and you never will. Only a professional racing driver can drive a car hard. Everyone else sucks.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by prizrak View Post
                                      I am well aware but again for the time being the restriction is only on scientists working for government agencies not government funded "private" research or even government owned universities (though there are no Fed owned unis far as I know)
                                      Along with the gag orders was a freezing of NSF, etc. grants, and the order could apply to existing grants, as well as stopping new ones. I'll also reiterate: some of my graduate work was done at a DOE-funded lab, and therefore involved working with DOE scientists who now have to get approval before sharing any data.
                                      "It's not long enough to use in bed." -rickhamilton620

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by Cellos88GT View Post
                                        I guess it only takes one person to ruin it for everybody.
                                        It certainly can, considering the effect.

                                        - - - Updated - - -

                                        Originally posted by chaos386 View Post
                                        Along with the gag orders was a freezing of NSF, etc. grants, and the order could apply to existing grants, as well as stopping new ones. I'll also reiterate: some of my graduate work was done at a DOE-funded lab, and therefore involved working with DOE scientists who now have to get approval before sharing any data.
                                        That's quite bad, like I said I am aware that a lot of research is done via grants and working with gov't entities, I have many friends in hardcore science. Hopefully my co-workers are right and this is just a tactic to force Congress to kowtow to his cabinet picks.
                                        ScarFace88 - "So you're a dildo?"

                                        Comment





                                          Last edited by GRtak; January 27th, 2017, 1:39 PM.
                                          "I don't care who does the electing, so long as I get to do the nominating" -Boss Tweed

                                          "No man's life, liberty or happiness are safe while Congress is in session,"- Mark Twain

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