Same sex marriage now legal in California

So the capacity for language is instinctual, but the language itself is socialized. I can't disagree on that. The point is that humans are not free of instinctual behaviors, we simply have the complex social structure and higher brain function to regulate complex behaviors, however, sexual attraction is rooted in the "old brain" or "reptilian brain" - the part we share with lower animals.
Right, but my opinion is sexual attraction isn't limited to gender alone. You can be heterosexual and find a some women utterly repulsive. Same with gays, they wouldn't be sexually attracted to just anyone who shares their gender. You say sexual attraction to a gender is instinctual, but all the other parts of sexual attraction is socialized? I don't agree with that.

Sounds good to me. Take out all the qualifiers and just leave it as a contract between consenting adults.

Ok, so they can marry, but not who they want to. I still see that as unfair and unnecessary regulation.
That's where the "slippery slope" argument stems from, no matter how much you dislike it. Someone can't marry who they want to, so it's an unfair and unnecessary regulation? Just as long as it's between consenting adults?

One group that I keep thinking about are bisexuals. I don't have a problem with them either, but what do they think about marriage? Do they think it's unfair that if they choose to get married, they have to decide one or the other gender to get married to? Or should they be allowed to have 2 spouses, of each gender, since they were obviously born bisexual and it would be a violation of their civil rights to limit them to one partner each, because the archaic marriage laws that limit marriage to just 2 people?

It can be a slippery slope. And in a country where you can spill coffee all over yourself, sue the company that sold it to you, and have some idiot judge award you millions of undeserved dollars... I wouldn't put much faith in humanity to enforce rules or common sense after legal precedences start piling up. They need to get specific and just define marriage, as far as the government is concerned, and just get it over with. imho

They are emotionally-driven and an emotional response is not a good reason to make a group of people second class citizens. The opponents have yet to make a rational argument against gay marriage, instead they content themselves with shouting inflammatory rhetoric about "attacks on the American Family" and other baseless bullshit. I'm not attacking religion, I'm attacking the idea of basing laws in religion - especially when it subjugates a group of people. I don't care what you, or anyone else believe, you can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Xenu, or the Great Pumpkin for all I care, but you don't have the right to legislate that onto the rest of the nation.
Again, you're trying to make a direct connection between banning same-sex marriage and religion. If that law passed, it wouldn't be a religious law, regardless of how you feel about it. People can vote however they want, that is their constitutional right, and no one has the right to question their reasons. Whether you want to admit it or not, everyone votes based on emotional responses. Marriage is an emotional thing, more then anything else. Unless you're just doing it to get tax breaks and other government paid (tax payer financed) benifits. In which case, it's entirely up to the voters to decide whatever they wish, based on whatever personal beliefs they have, religious or otherwise. You believe people who're sexually attracted to the same gender should be allowed to get married and get spousal benifits, because you believe they were born that way and it's a civil rights issue. The problem is that it hasn't yet been proven, so your opinion is simply based on your personal beliefs. And you sure are getting emotional about it in here.

But the fact is, marriage is deeply rooted with religion. To expect religious people to not care about marriage, or what standards they think it should be held to, would be very ignorant. It's a personal issue for them, just like same-sex marriage is a personal issue for homosexuals. And to expect them not to vote about issues they care very deeply about, is equally out-of-touch.

If this wasn't an emotional issue, then they would be trying to change the laws governing civil unions to give them the same benifits as "traditional married" couples. Instead they're going after marriage itself, because it means so much more then a civil union.
 
In the UK, gay people can have civil partnerships. Legally recognised, contains most of the benefits of marriage and so on. It's a marriage in all but name.

Is this the kind of thing that you're after?

I'm all for civil unions, but that's usually not enough for the gay community. They want to use the term "marriage" and that's what bothers me. I don't think a religious entity should marry gay couples but there's not much I can do about that, freedom of religion and all. Then again, polygyny was made illegal against the Mormons so religious beliefs can be successfully legislated against :lol:

What about straight couples who get married but don't believe in god? Where does that fit into your principle of marriage?

As long as it's between a man and a woman, yes. Nonbelievers can follow God's law without believing in it.
 
Nonbeleivers don't follow God's law, but their own set of morals and beliefs. If they just happen to coincide with the religion, it's just a coincidence or maybe an evolution of the teachings and bigger picture without the added bullcrap.

2 atheists getting married are legally only civilly bound since (in most cases) the process doesn't take place in a church, but it's still called marriage. Why not the same for gay people?
 
Nonbeleivers don't follow God's law, but their own set of morals and beliefs. If they just happen to coincide with the religion, it's just a coincidence or maybe an evolution of the teachings and bigger picture without the added bullcrap.

2 atheists getting married are legally only civilly bound since (in most cases) the process doesn't take place in a church, but it's still called marriage. Why not the same for gay people?

Because one marriage is between the opposite sex, and the other is between the same sex. One is natural, the other is unnatural. One is sanctioned by God, the other is not. An atheist could follow the laws of the land just as a religious person and that's good. An atheist could refrain from harming his fellow man, stealing, cheating, lying, etc. and he would be also following the commandments of God as well as his own personal beliefs. A gay couple who wishes to get married are not following God's definition of marriage, therefore is wrong. Basic Belief 101, take it or leave it. Should gay people be punished for not sharing the same beliefs as me? No, they shouldn't. That's why I suggested civil unions where they can legally have the same benefits as heterosexual married couples, but please do not pollute the term "marriage".
 
Should i point out to this biggot that marriage has been around from way before Catholic religion or should I just stop arguing with him?
 
Someone can't marry who they want to, so it's an unfair and unnecessary regulation? Just as long as it's between consenting adults?

Yes.

Sometimes I'm amazed at how many people can't comprehend such a simple concept.

Should i point out to this biggot that marriage has been around from way before Catholic religion or should I just stop arguing with him?

The latter, please. His opinions are derived from faith and religion, and while there's usually nothing wrong with that, they are undebatable by definition.
 
Should i point out to this biggot that marriage has been around from way before Catholic religion or should I just stop arguing with him?

Well, since I believe in Adam and Eve as the first married couple, that pretty much predates anything you can come up with. But, as was said above, these are my beliefs, take it or leave it. Bigot has only one "g", FYI.
 
Yes.

Sometimes I'm amazed at how many people can't comprehend such a simple concept.
I was asking in relation to the "Slippery Slope" scenario. Those were rhetorical questions.
 
One group that I keep thinking about are bisexuals. I don't have a problem with them either, but what do they think about marriage? Do they think it's unfair that if they choose to get married, they have to decide one or the other gender to get married to? Or should they be allowed to have 2 spouses, of each gender, since they were obviously born bisexual and it would be a violation of their civil rights to limit them to one partner each, because the archaic marriage laws that limit marriage to just 2 people?

I don't quite see the validity of your bisexual argument. Marriage is basically two people deciding to spend the rest of their lives together. It really doesn't matter what their sexual preferences are. Are you claiming that heterosexuals are only capable of loving one person?? A bisexual marrying two people of different sex would be the same as a straight person marrying two people of the opposite sex. I don't see the difference... Again sexual orientation has nothing to do with marriage or love as far as I can comprehend it.

It is a "contract" between two people to spend teheir lives together, declaring their love for eachother. The goverment encourages this behaviour by giving married coupels benefits singel people do not have (as well as employers ets.). So again... what has sexual behaviour got to do with this issue?
 
Are you for or against same-sex marriage? I can't tell.
 
If you're asking me, I'm for it. I don't see a reason not to allow it...
 
No. Equality means equal; that's my goal.

Question was aimed at cvrefugee, mainly as he said this :

cvrefugee said:
Give gays all the legal and financial benefits that marriage brings, but don't call it marriage. It's the principle of the matter that I disagree with.

For the record, I happen to agree with you, Blind. I was playing devil's advocate. You do, though, raise a good point that I hadn't thought of when I made the post - the 'most of' bit. I guess I need to read up on UK legislation regarding civil partnerships some more; it's not exactly my specialist subject.

cvrefugee said:
Well, since I believe in Adam and Eve as the first married couple, that pretty much predates anything you can come up with.

Would've been a pretty crappy stag night for Adam.
 
It's fine to have your own personal religious beliefs, but you can't expect other people to follow those beliefs just because you believe them to true. You have the freedom to believe what you want, but you also have to extend that same freedom to others, and not expect everyone to abide by your beliefs.

Let freedom ring.....

P.S. I'm a Christian BTW.....but not all "believers" expect everyone else to live by their beliefs.
 
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At the end of the day, the question is whether the State has the right to prevent 2 consenting adults from taking part in something that is private and harms no one. And quite frankly, doesn't concern anyone else. You live your life, let others live theirs.

*edit*Because if we want to start dictating such things, then I want to start with limiting how many kids people can have.
 
^^^ Exactly :)
 
All I have to say is it's about damn time. I'm hetero, but I have many gay friends and some have been in relationships for a long time, and have been waiting for this for just as long. what I particularly like about this decision is that not only did the judge say that this was legal on the grounds of rationality, like Massachusetts did, but also compared it to Loving v. Virginia. In much the same way that the supreme court ruled that interracial marriage was racial discrimination, the California court has set a precedent that equates discrimination based on sexual orientation to discrimination by race or by gender. This means that within the state of california, discrimination based on sexual orientation within government is now effectively banned. I think that's a huge victory for the GLBTQ... community.
 
It's fine to have your own personal religious beliefs, but you can't expect other people to follow those beliefs just because you believe them to true. You have the freedom to believe what you want, but you also have to extend that same freedom to others, and not expect everyone to abide by your beliefs.

Let freedom ring.....

P.S. I'm a Christian BTW.....but not all "believers" expect everyone else to live by their beliefs.

At the end of the day, the question is whether the State has the right to prevent 2 consenting adults from taking part in something that is private and harms no one. And quite frankly, doesn't concern anyone else. You live your life, let others live theirs.

*edit*Because if we want to start dictating such things, then I want to start with limiting how many kids people can have.

QFT

Bloody well said - if only everyone could understand...
 
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