How do the British afford to be Car Nuts?

while Clarkson may have an issue with the Corvette

It's in his 10 car fantasy garage, where does the idea he has an issue with it come from?

Anyway, yes we get raped on tax, but it's not just that. There have been quite a few 'scandals' uncovered showing companies blatantly marking up car prices by several thousand over and above the correction for the market/economy. As an example of this in action, go to almost any dealership in the UK and if you're good, you can haggle THOUSANDS off the price of a car. And not an expensive car, I mean a Ford Focus or something. You will be able to talk any salesman into a -?1500 price and a few optional extras thrown in free.

That sounds great, but it's just indicitive of how much we're OVERpaying normally.
 
Its horrendous! The US get a 350Z for the price of a Mini Cooper over here! :(
 
Let's compare some AUD-US prices (stolen from another forum)

You left out the fact that the Australian-made Holden Monaro is more expensive in Australia than the Pontiac GTO was after it was stuck on a giant boat and sailed to the other side of the world.

I'm not sure how the Commodore / G8 is going to compare, but I doubt it'll be much different.
 
Please stop falling back on old, hackneyed stereotypes so easily. You'll notice in my signature my 400hp V8 going around a corner and it isn't falling over (in fact you'll notice less body roll than my Porsche under load). Cars such as the upcoming Camaro and Monaro-derived GTO/G8 have the big motors but can also handle and have adequate brakes. Your frozen 1970 stereotypes are not applicable. My point was simply that in Europe the average person can't touch a V8. I could not afford to have such a car, if it existed, doing my job in London. I expect the "cheapest" V8 one can buy in the UK is the Monaro and how much does that cost again, was it something like 40,000 Pounds, and could the average person afford it? Could you afford it?

The point being why would i need a 400hp v8? There are a multitude of cars that will perform better around a track with a lot less power, the Elise being a well known example hence why i brought it up. If i want a v8 i'd rather it came in a more complete package, not bolted to a basic car, you can pump crazy amounts of hp into any car but that doesn't make it good, a 400hp ford focus for instance.
As for the Monaro prices start at ?28k, now for 3k cheaper I could have a Radical SR3, not an everyday car, but then if we're looking at enthusiast cars, I have a everyday car for my everyday needs and a separate car for my enjoyment. And yes the average person can afford this, consider the BMW 3 series being the standard middle management car in the UK with prices ranging from 22k to 36k.

(I may make a personal exception for the Mini), which is right or wrong all the average wage-earning European enthusiast can afford.

That?s wrong, track days across Britain see a plethora of cars ranging from the "wrong wheel drive" hot hatches all the way up to Ferraris and Lambos.

And an Elise in the US will set you back $50,000 and really doesn't even belong in the class of cars an average wage-earning person could afford.

It costs about the same over here, and over this side of the pond it is in the class of what the average middle class worker can afford.
Also on the wages issue: statistics a couple of years old but the UK average wage is $46,100 compared with $38,650...

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

I'm curious, what's the cheapest car one can buy in Europe that has at least 300hp, rwd, and a limited slip diff? And can the average working man afford it? That's my minimal bar for an enthusiast, track day car. Over here $25k will get you a Mustang GT or the upcoming Hyundai Genesis coupe, both of which meet those requirements.

Well that?s using your budget and qualifications, yes cars over here are more expensive but then people can and do pay the extra cost as our budget for a entry level enthusiast car would be bigger and you can have much less horses than that and be a lot quicker around a track! As for enthusiasts on a much smaller budget there is the used market.



The vast majority of health insurance in the US is subsidized or entirely paid for by employers. It's far from a perfect system, but I'm not sure it's any more expensive for the average American (as a percentage of income) than the tax-based funding for the NHS.

That was my point...it isn't any more expensive across the board, just rather than where in the UK we have higher taxation as healthcare is provided by the state, in the US you have private healthcare which you or your employer pays specifically for. So on paper products in the UK may appear more expensive but that?s because the tax levied against them go to providing services which in the US you have to pay for privately to attain the same quality.

State schools are not that expensive and can be world class. Also, there are huge scholarship programs here. yes, it's more expensive to go to college here, but the University system is at least an order of magnitude larger (so people can actually afford it here, despite what you imply) and may be better on average.

There are scholarship programs over here too, point being it still costs more in the US, again going back to what i said above though, where in the US a parent will take out a college fund and pay into it throughout their childs life, we have taxes which we all chip into and which provide the same level of support. And i never said you can't afford the education, just that it costs a lot more as you pay for it directly.

Why do Europeans latch onto Michael Moore as some sort of soothsayer of America and its failings? You are aware that this guy is essentially a pamphleteer and that there is another side to every story he presents? How exactly did you feel about the way Moore presented the NHS? Where would you rather be seriously ill, Cuba or the US? be honest. That's a very dubious and somewhat meaningless statement.

I see Micahel Moore as a presenter that broadcasts sob stories in a comical manner to highlight underlying problems. I know the wrongs he highlights are exceptions rather than rule, however the benefits of the European systems, he highlighted are real, the downfalls of the US system only effecting a minority.

I'm not sure which British "benefits gained in society" you're refering to. To dramatically over-simplify the situation, yes the US has a tendancy to privatize things, while the UK has a slightly (very slightly) greater propensity to socialize things. Each approach has benefits and drawbacks, socializing services/benefits is hardly a panacea.

The benefits gained in society i term are from the top of this thread, we may have to pay more for cars or other products however much of the extra cost is through taxation and this taxation goes to providing our services as detailed above.
My point is that with having certain people patronisingly say that enthusiasts in the UK or Europe can't afford good cars as they cost so much more than in the states is not looking at the bigger picture. The standard of living is very similar for the average middle class man on both sides of the Atlantic, however the economic systems our countries run on are very different so where we pay a lot more on products this indirectly funds public services where in the US you pay less on products but your services are predominantly privatised, so the money your saving your paying more directly for the services we receive from the state.

Just that fact that you're terming a car a "luxury" is an indication of the differences between the US and the UK.

I'm sorry this was poorly worded, it was late! A car is by no means a luxury, however the fast car an enthusiast would want to take to a track is. In my eyes in life you pay for the things you enjoy, I enjoy driving therefore I?m willing to pay more for something I can enjoy to drive, especially as this is a second car for me. And to me a luxury is relative, a fast car can be obtained on a budget in the UK all the same but it will always be more expensive than a slower more standard car and so paying the extra is the luxury.

It has much more to do with relative gas prices, driving conditions (my job requires a 80 mile roundtrip daily driving commute, which in Britain would be unthinkable), public transportation availability, geography (the US is a hell of a lot bigger than the UK, the entire UK would fit into Oregon), historic government policy etc than a propensity to caring about the environment. Don't assume that simply because Brits tend to drive smaller cars, they're somehow more virtuous than Americans. Assuming a moral high ground towards the dratted Yanks is a common failing I see from Brits and it really gets tiresome.

I?m not claiming we're more virtuous, and yes the average Joe is not buying his smaller car solely due to the environmental implications, however that along with other factors such as practicality is heavily on his mind. (Our Road tax system now calculates tax based on CO2 emissions for example and exemptions are given in Londons congestion charge for environmentally friendly vehicles, with large polluting cars pay exponentially more.) Yes gas prices effect us more over here however there are still plenty of large 4x4s available within most peoples price range yet they are seen as impractical for modern British living by most. Granted I understand that in the US there are more remote rural communities, and i have no problem with trucks where labouring work etc makes them a requirement, however I still find it ridiculous especially with the state of the planet to use a truck for moving about a city. I do see this as wrong, that?s my opinion. I think my opinion is more valid than attacking the UK for the average Joe who isn't interested in driving, having a small practical car that returns good mpg. As or the commute, I have many friends who commute over 100 miles a day in a round trip, granted most will go by train, but saying it is unthinkable is a bit short sighted?


This country is the only one I can think of that has the "pursuit of happyness" in it's motto. Yes, the vast majority of Americans would agree with you that driving a Hummer through New York City is absurd. But, the vast majority of Americans would also say that if it makes people happy, more power to them. Also, once again, gas prices are a fraction of UK prices here and drving conditions are completely different, so it's not as completely ludicrous from an economic perspective as it would be in the UK. Once again, don't assume that this is due to the virtuousness of Brits and the evilness of Yanks.

The cost of fuel may make it more viable in the US however it is not the economics that put people off in the UK. And if the majority of Americans would agree its ridiculous why are the city streets littered with such large trucks, many obviously feel the need to drive a 5 litre truck to pop to the shops for groceries. There?s no problem in the ideology of happiness, however as trends in cars go the UK is ahead in that your average driver prefers to drive a compact practical car rather than a hulking brute when nipping through traffic.


:rolleyes: Stop buying Clarkson's bullshit. The US is a much bigger market than the UK for all of those cars (except maybe the Elise). Yes, we actually do buy BMWs (biggest market in the world), Porsches (biggest market in the world), Ferraris (biggest market in the world) etc. There are many, many more road tracks here in the US than there are in the UK. This is a big, geographically diverse country and it's ridiculous to assume that all roads here are arrow straight. There are regions (New England, the Rockies etc) of this country that are much bigger than the entire UK that offer superb driving. Also, don't assume that Americans think that the Mustang is the height of engineering prowess either. It's just the cheapest way to get a big V8 with 300bhp. If they sold them in the UK for 15K pounds, there'd be a line out the door there as well. Anyway, the typical American car is not a Mustang, it's a Honda Accord or Toyota Corolla, just like the UK.

I'm not questioning that the US doesn't have a large market for these cars, remembering that with over 5 times the population of the UK the market is bound to be larger. And I?m not comparing sales or saying the mustang is the most popular car, however it is the popular budget enthusiast car highlighted in this thread. My point is based on other replies, people seem to think that the muscle of the engine make it a good car compared to what a budget fast car in the UK could offer. Whacking a truck engine into a standard car is not something to be proud of. Yes it is a fast car and yes it is cheap but the power alone will not win the race. Would it sell in the UK, I?m sure it would but i don?t think people would be lines at the doors for it (and ford obviously don?t either or they'd try and sell it over here). The market prefers cars which are more diverse than just a drag racer. And yes i know it'll go round a track but not as well as a lot of the competition within the price range which can be lighter and with less power. As I?ve already said, if I wanted a v8 id rather it wasn?t in a budget car.


Outweighed only by your ignorance. Let me assure you, you really have no idea what you're talking about and your presumptions are condescending and patronizing. It seems like every statement you make can be predicted by thinking "what conclusion can I draw from this circumstantial evidence that will paint the US in the worst possible light". Depressingly, lots of Brits seemingly love to think similarly.

You can assume what you wish, I have no need to paint the US in the worst possible light, it does that fine all by itself, and that?s not a Brit opinion if you follow the press outside of the US you'll find its one echoed worldwide. But more locally to this topic if you wish to ignore my opinion then that?s up to you, however the answer to the topic is that Brits can and do bear the brunt of higher prices to drive cars just as fast as in the US and we can afford to. Yes i would love for cars to be as cheap over here but it wouldn't work in our economical system.
 
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You can assume what you wish, I have no need to paint the US in the worst possible light, it does that fine all by itself, and that?s not a Brit opinion if you follow the press outside of the US you'll find its one echoed worldwide. But more locally to this topic if you wish to ignore my opinion then that?s up to you, however the answer to the topic is that Brits can and do bear the brunt of higher prices to drive cars just as fast as in the US and we can afford to. Yes i would love for cars to be as cheap over here but it wouldn't work in our economical system.

Think the answer to my original question was VAT is included in the advertised car prices in the UK. I would much rather have an Elise than a mustang GT, I have owned two and I should have learned my lesson after the first one. It was like something BMC would have put together in the late 70's :lol:.

Point is there are different tastes in everything, I just didn't see why a British car built in Britain (by a German company) would be 30% less expensive in the U.S. But I think VAT and MOT are the answers.

As for the whole US vs. UK thing, I think the UK is just more of a compassionate society than the US which is understandable as it is much more homogenous than the US and is based on a unitary rather than Federal System. Rather than looking at the US as a whole, it?s more informative to look at it region by region. Making blanket assumptions about the US is like making blanket assumptions about ?Europeans?. In general there is more of a sense of community in Europe than in the US while the US values individualism more than Europe as a whole. Of course that?s a blanket generalization that may not apply comparing the hashish bars of Amsterdam with the churches of Georgia (for an extreme example).

We could look at a whole ream of Statistics and theorize about why things are the way they are, but I do know that cars cost more in Europe than the US but they haven?t always. The thing is I fell out of Europe in the mid 80?s and things were the complete opposite then. It was the European?s who were the great polluters with their refusal to adopt catalytic converters and their crazy high revving engines and their loony ideas about driving being fun! (Just in case you didn?t notice, I am being sarcastic).

Oh, and that?s when the American love of community rose above that of the British, after all if the British wanted a truly compassionate society like America they would remove all those aesthetically pleasing grills and replace them with huge rubber battering rams like we did. In fact, we felt such a strong sense of brotherhood with our cousins across the pond that we just HAD to redesign that MGB so that it would be safe for all to enjoy.

The 1974 MG is enough reason for the British to continue to harbor ill will toward America for generations to come, it would be like forcing Frenchmen to eat at fast food restaurants, or Italians to drink coffee in chain stores, oh?I guess we kind of did that too.

Back to cars (mmmm?cars) back in 1980 American?s were snapping up as many 3500 lb Oldsmobile?s with 115hp 5.7 liter V-8s and three speed automatic transmissions as Detroit could churn out. Consequentially that?s what I was stuck with in the late 80?s because that?s what was over here.

You ^*%#! Europeans & Brits with your Maestro Turbo, 320, 323i, 316, XR3i, RS2000, GTI, Capri, XR4i, XR2, Gordini, Alfas, Fiats, Manta GTE this and 205 GTI that! For all that?s holly, you could just walk into a car dealership and but a Rover 3500 with an aluminum V-8 and a Manual transmission! We had ?eurosport? tape packages while you could buy 2000 lb cars with more than 100hp and CHEAPER that that Oldsmobile Detroit was forcing me to work summers for.

Given that background, it?s a shock to look at the current state of affairs and weep for the British driver.

Oh yes, and I know, we Americans still don?t have a decent F1 driver!
 
You left out the fact that the Australian-made Holden Monaro is more expensive in Australia than the Pontiac GTO was after it was stuck on a giant boat and sailed to the other side of the world.

I'm not sure how the Commodore / G8 is going to compare, but I doubt it'll be much different.

A G8 GT costs less than a base Commodore Omega. The G8 is $29995USD (about $31500AUD), and the Omega is $36790AUD (about $35000USD).

When I spent time in Germany and the UK I did not get the impression that public transportation was any better in their small towns compared to the US, but that was a while ago. Densely populated metros in virtually all Western cities worldwide (London, New York, Paris) all have some form of decent public transportation. Cities with less than say 100,000 it is just too expensive and too little used to make any economic sense.

Another issue is that many of these cities DID have good rail systems, and then once cars got more popular, the PT systems were decommissioned. Now the cities have grown, along with traffic, now there's a need for a PT system which no longer exists.

Just like in the nearest city to here (Geelong), it had tram tracks, but they were ripped up in the 1950's. There's a train line, but it's mainly used for going between cities.

As a result, the big differential I see between American car culture and the Europeans, is the lack of "middle" range cars. In other words, the plebes have these tiny horrid 1 liter econoboxes made by Peugeot and such. A successful plebe can aspire to something as lofty as a Ford Mondeo. Then you have all the magnificent high end cars (Merc/BMW etc.) that only wealthy people can afford. And there doesn't seem to be anything inbetween. There seems to be a huge gap in Europe between the economy cars and the high end cars, I'm guessing that's where the Japanese fit in.

Then why is the BMW 3 series one of the top 10 biggest sellers in the UK?
 
It's in his 10 car fantasy garage, where does the idea he has an issue with it come from?

From the fact that he dares to evaluate it critically, raising some of its weaker points, rather than masturbating over it while wearing Old Glory like a cape and singing The Star-Spangled Banner at the top of his lungs.

Point is there are different tastes in everything, I just didn't see why a British car built in Britain (by a German company) would be 30% less expensive in the U.S. But I think VAT and MOT are the answers.

Not quite. VAT is 17.5% and new vehicle registrations cost ?55.

Let's look at an example:

Range Rover prices (from)
$76,500 in the US
?56,000 in the UK

So the consumers in the US are paying ?39,875. If we assume that we don't have to subtract any sales tax to draw a comparison due to the way that the US tax system works, we can just add the UK taxes and see what we get. (39875 X 1.175) + 55 = ?46,908. Remember that these cars are built in the Midlands and then shipped to the US.

I remember back in the day when car companies nicknamed the UK Treasure Island (before they got told off years ago) reading a story about a man who bought his Landy from Holland. He went to Holland and ordered a UK spec car from a dealership. As he was importing to the UK he didn't pay the Dutch VAT of 19%, but rather he payed the 17.5% UK VAT when he got off the ferry. He still managed to save over 10 grand.

Then why is the BMW 3 series one of the top 10 biggest sellers in the UK?

Because they are fairly good quality and competitively priced (note: not cheap). I wouldn't call them 'luxury', that's a term reserved for Rollers and top end Mercs. Car companies would have you believe that a bit of leather in a Micra is 'luxury'.
 
You can assume what you wish, I have no need to paint the US in the worst possible light, it does that fine all by itself, and that?s not a Brit opinion if you follow the press outside of the US you'll find its one echoed worldwide.

hmmm....bad US image propagated by foreign press = the US doing it by itself....:rolleyes:

This thread has officially outlived its purpose. :dancinglock:
 
hmmm....bad US image propagated by foreign press = the US doing it by itself....:rolleyes:

Not necessarily...


I can't remember where I read this, but I do remember it...The perception of the US when Clinton was in charge was that the US's image was that of one who was a bit shifty, a bit likely to be 'distracted' and cheat, but generally solid (and positive). Now the US's image is that of incompetence, stupidity and warmongering...

Can't really blame the foreign press for that one.
 
Not necessarily...


I can't remember where I read this, but I do remember it...The perception of the US when Clinton was in charge was that the US's image was that of one who was a bit shifty, a bit likely to be 'distracted' and cheat, but generally solid (and positive). Now the US's image is that of incompetence, stupidity and warmongering...

Can't really blame the foreign press for that one.

Well how do you think the world froms their perception? Out of thin air? I never said the press was to blame, I was just pointing out the contradictory point made by the quoted poster. In reality, both the actions of the US and the selective reporting of outside press end up forming people's perception. But who cares, this is way off topic and nobody is contributing anything new or productive to the original topic.
/thread...seriously.
 
But who cares, this is way off topic and nobody is contributing anything new or productive to the original topic.
/thread...seriously.

Because you fall for some tongue in cheek troll baiting? Riiiight. Why don't you try responding to some of the sensible posts?
 
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