Please stop falling back on old, hackneyed stereotypes so easily. You'll notice in my signature my 400hp V8 going around a corner and it isn't falling over (in fact you'll notice less body roll than my Porsche under load). Cars such as the upcoming Camaro and Monaro-derived GTO/G8 have the big motors but can also handle and have adequate brakes. Your frozen 1970 stereotypes are not applicable. My point was simply that in Europe the average person can't touch a V8. I could not afford to have such a car, if it existed, doing my job in London. I expect the "cheapest" V8 one can buy in the UK is the Monaro and how much does that cost again, was it something like 40,000 Pounds, and could the average person afford it? Could you afford it?
The point being why would i need a 400hp v8? There are a multitude of cars that will perform better around a track with a lot less power, the Elise being a well known example hence why i brought it up. If i want a v8 i'd rather it came in a more complete package, not bolted to a basic car, you can pump crazy amounts of hp into any car but that doesn't make it good, a 400hp ford focus for instance.
As for the Monaro prices start at ?28k, now for 3k cheaper I could have a Radical SR3, not an everyday car, but then if we're looking at enthusiast cars, I have a everyday car for my everyday needs and a separate car for my enjoyment. And yes the average person can afford this, consider the BMW 3 series being the standard middle management car in the UK with prices ranging from 22k to 36k.
(I may make a personal exception for the Mini), which is right or wrong all the average wage-earning European enthusiast can afford.
That?s wrong, track days across Britain see a plethora of cars ranging from the "wrong wheel drive" hot hatches all the way up to Ferraris and Lambos.
And an Elise in the US will set you back $50,000 and really doesn't even belong in the class of cars an average wage-earning person could afford.
It costs about the same over here, and over this side of the pond it is in the class of what the average middle class worker can afford.
Also on the wages issue: statistics a couple of years old but the UK average wage is $46,100 compared with $38,650...
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285
I'm curious, what's the cheapest car one can buy in Europe that has at least 300hp, rwd, and a limited slip diff? And can the average working man afford it? That's my minimal bar for an enthusiast, track day car. Over here $25k will get you a Mustang GT or the upcoming Hyundai Genesis coupe, both of which meet those requirements.
Well that?s using your budget and qualifications, yes cars over here are more expensive but then people can and do pay the extra cost as our budget for a entry level enthusiast car would be bigger and you can have much less horses than that and be a lot quicker around a track! As for enthusiasts on a much smaller budget there is the used market.
The vast majority of health insurance in the US is subsidized or entirely paid for by employers. It's far from a perfect system, but I'm not sure it's any more expensive for the average American (as a percentage of income) than the tax-based funding for the NHS.
That was my point...it isn't any more expensive across the board, just rather than where in the UK we have higher taxation as healthcare is provided by the state, in the US you have private healthcare which you or your employer pays specifically for. So on paper products in the UK may appear more expensive but that?s because the tax levied against them go to providing services which in the US you have to pay for privately to attain the same quality.
State schools are not that expensive and can be world class. Also, there are huge scholarship programs here. yes, it's more expensive to go to college here, but the University system is at least an order of magnitude larger (so people can actually afford it here, despite what you imply) and may be better on average.
There are scholarship programs over here too, point being it still costs more in the US, again going back to what i said above though, where in the US a parent will take out a college fund and pay into it throughout their childs life, we have taxes which we all chip into and which provide the same level of support. And i never said you can't afford the education, just that it costs a lot more as you pay for it directly.
Why do Europeans latch onto Michael Moore as some sort of soothsayer of America and its failings? You are aware that this guy is essentially a pamphleteer and that there is another side to every story he presents? How exactly did you feel about the way Moore presented the NHS? Where would you rather be seriously ill, Cuba or the US? be honest. That's a very dubious and somewhat meaningless statement.
I see Micahel Moore as a presenter that broadcasts sob stories in a comical manner to highlight underlying problems. I know the wrongs he highlights are exceptions rather than rule, however the benefits of the European systems, he highlighted are real, the downfalls of the US system only effecting a minority.
I'm not sure which British "benefits gained in society" you're refering to. To dramatically over-simplify the situation, yes the US has a tendancy to privatize things, while the UK has a slightly (very slightly) greater propensity to socialize things. Each approach has benefits and drawbacks, socializing services/benefits is hardly a panacea.
The benefits gained in society i term are from the top of this thread, we may have to pay more for cars or other products however much of the extra cost is through taxation and this taxation goes to providing our services as detailed above.
My point is that with having certain people patronisingly say that enthusiasts in the UK or Europe can't afford good cars as they cost so much more than in the states is not looking at the bigger picture. The standard of living is very similar for the average middle class man on both sides of the Atlantic, however the economic systems our countries run on are very different so where we pay a lot more on products this indirectly funds public services where in the US you pay less on products but your services are predominantly privatised, so the money your saving your paying more directly for the services we receive from the state.
Just that fact that you're terming a car a "luxury" is an indication of the differences between the US and the UK.
I'm sorry this was poorly worded, it was late! A car is by no means a luxury, however the fast car an enthusiast would want to take to a track is. In my eyes in life you pay for the things you enjoy, I enjoy driving therefore I?m willing to pay more for something I can enjoy to drive, especially as this is a second car for me. And to me a luxury is relative, a fast car can be obtained on a budget in the UK all the same but it will always be more expensive than a slower more standard car and so paying the extra is the luxury.
It has much more to do with relative gas prices, driving conditions (my job requires a 80 mile roundtrip daily driving commute, which in Britain would be unthinkable), public transportation availability, geography (the US is a hell of a lot bigger than the UK, the entire UK would fit into Oregon), historic government policy etc than a propensity to caring about the environment. Don't assume that simply because Brits tend to drive smaller cars, they're somehow more virtuous than Americans. Assuming a moral high ground towards the dratted Yanks is a common failing I see from Brits and it really gets tiresome.
I?m not claiming we're more virtuous, and yes the average Joe is not buying his smaller car solely due to the environmental implications, however that along with other factors such as practicality is heavily on his mind. (Our Road tax system now calculates tax based on CO2 emissions for example and exemptions are given in Londons congestion charge for environmentally friendly vehicles, with large polluting cars pay exponentially more.) Yes gas prices effect us more over here however there are still plenty of large 4x4s available within most peoples price range yet they are seen as impractical for modern British living by most. Granted I understand that in the US there are more remote rural communities, and i have no problem with trucks where labouring work etc makes them a requirement, however I still find it ridiculous especially with the state of the planet to use a truck for moving about a city. I do see this as wrong, that?s my opinion. I think my opinion is more valid than attacking the UK for the average Joe who isn't interested in driving, having a small practical car that returns good mpg. As or the commute, I have many friends who commute over 100 miles a day in a round trip, granted most will go by train, but saying it is unthinkable is a bit short sighted?
This country is the only one I can think of that has the "pursuit of happyness" in it's motto. Yes, the vast majority of Americans would agree with you that driving a Hummer through New York City is absurd. But, the vast majority of Americans would also say that if it makes people happy, more power to them. Also, once again, gas prices are a fraction of UK prices here and drving conditions are completely different, so it's not as completely ludicrous from an economic perspective as it would be in the UK. Once again, don't assume that this is due to the virtuousness of Brits and the evilness of Yanks.
The cost of fuel may make it more viable in the US however it is not the economics that put people off in the UK. And if the majority of Americans would agree its ridiculous why are the city streets littered with such large trucks, many obviously feel the need to drive a 5 litre truck to pop to the shops for groceries. There?s no problem in the ideology of happiness, however as trends in cars go the UK is ahead in that your average driver prefers to drive a compact practical car rather than a hulking brute when nipping through traffic.
Stop buying Clarkson's bullshit. The US is a much bigger market than the UK for all of those cars (except maybe the Elise). Yes, we actually do buy BMWs (biggest market in the world), Porsches (biggest market in the world), Ferraris (biggest market in the world) etc. There are many, many more road tracks here in the US than there are in the UK. This is a big, geographically diverse country and it's ridiculous to assume that all roads here are arrow straight. There are regions (New England, the Rockies etc) of this country that are much bigger than the entire UK that offer superb driving. Also, don't assume that Americans think that the Mustang is the height of engineering prowess either. It's just the cheapest way to get a big V8 with 300bhp. If they sold them in the UK for 15K pounds, there'd be a line out the door there as well. Anyway, the typical American car is not a Mustang, it's a Honda Accord or Toyota Corolla, just like the UK.
I'm not questioning that the US doesn't have a large market for these cars, remembering that with over 5 times the population of the UK the market is bound to be larger. And I?m not comparing sales or saying the mustang is the most popular car, however it is the popular budget enthusiast car highlighted in this thread. My point is based on other replies, people seem to think that the muscle of the engine make it a good car compared to what a budget fast car in the UK could offer. Whacking a truck engine into a standard car is not something to be proud of. Yes it is a fast car and yes it is cheap but the power alone will not win the race. Would it sell in the UK, I?m sure it would but i don?t think people would be lines at the doors for it (and ford obviously don?t either or they'd try and sell it over here). The market prefers cars which are more diverse than just a drag racer. And yes i know it'll go round a track but not as well as a lot of the competition within the price range which can be lighter and with less power. As I?ve already said, if I wanted a v8 id rather it wasn?t in a budget car.
Outweighed only by your ignorance. Let me assure you, you really have no idea what you're talking about and your presumptions are condescending and patronizing. It seems like every statement you make can be predicted by thinking "what conclusion can I draw from this circumstantial evidence that will paint the US in the worst possible light". Depressingly, lots of Brits seemingly love to think similarly.
You can assume what you wish, I have no need to paint the US in the worst possible light, it does that fine all by itself, and that?s not a Brit opinion if you follow the press outside of the US you'll find its one echoed worldwide. But more locally to this topic if you wish to ignore my opinion then that?s up to you, however the answer to the topic is that Brits can and do bear the brunt of higher prices to drive cars just as fast as in the US and we can afford to. Yes i would love for cars to be as cheap over here but it wouldn't work in our economical system.