Tyre questions

NooDle

NooDle

Ik ben niet alleen lekker met kaas!
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
10,620
Location
Belgium
Car(s)
Kia EV6 "Mullet"
So a while ago I was getting new tyres put on my car and of course they make you wait forever.
So you read those "magazines" entirely sponsored by tyre manufacturers.

One of them (Continental) said that no matter which car, if you swap your tyres (front and rear) because usually the fronts wear more on FWD cars, you should ALWAYS have the 'best' pair on the rear tyres.

This seems strange to me, because with FWD, your front wheels do all the steering + all the accelerating/braking. So if you put the "worn" tyres on the front wheels, you cannot steer, brake or accelerate, wile your rear tyres have massive grip.

IMO a FWD car should always have the 'best/least worn' tyres on the front wheels. I'd like the reassurance that if I skid off the road somewhere, I have some sort of control over where the car is going.

RWD cars may be different, since they can use the "throttle out" escape road, but srsly, why would you need good rear grip with a FWD car?
 
But tracking is done by the rears. Front loses grip, means you go straight on and cannot steer. Rear loses grip, your car starts spinning uncontrollably and you have no idea where you're going. Take your pick.
 
Fronts wear quicker on FWD car and rears tend to wear quicker on a rear wheel drive car, not sure why their advice is best tyres in the opposite to where you would think
 
to quote TG :

"Oversteer is better because you don't see the tree that's about to kill you"
 
my brothers car loves rear tyres....



but it's a commodore


so that's kind of a given.
 
If you have non-directional tires, these are the best solutions:

tire_rotation_abc.jpg


Otherwise yes, just front to back and back to front. This is to ensure even tire wear so you don't end up with 2 tires being bald and 2 tires not.

tire_rotation_de.jpg
 
I have directional tyres so I did D

But if you have 2 worn front tyres and 2 relatively OK rear tyres :
you have to buy 2 new tyres : where do you put them?

According to Continental : put the "used but not worn" ones on the front and the brand new ones on the back

I did the opposite, I just replaced my really worn front ones with new tyres and left the "used but not worn" at the rear
 
I'm presuming that you are replacing the tyres for your Astra.



If you are only getting two tyres, then the best set(or with the most rubber) of tyres go to the front. And don't swap your tyres from side to side, because you have the same tyre size all round. When the tyre wears out after a while, you can swap the rear set of tyres with the front set.

If you are getting all the tyres replaced, then there is no need to worry.
 
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In the BMW Driver's Training they asked the same question, with the same answer.

Their reasoning was, that if the fronts do go, all you get is (fairly) safe understeer. Because the majority of drivers cannot control sudden oversteer, it is far more dangerous if the rears lose traction, or even worse, have a catastrophic failure.

This seems like a logical approach, as even an unskilled person has an easier time preventing understeer by driving accordingly. Snap oversteer is an unknown situation for most, often causing the driver to react incorrectly.
 
Well I understand that when it comes to RWD cars but with FWD cars, the worn tyres on front wheel just further enhance the already bad understeer, which, in a FWD car, I find a lot more dangerous than occasional oversteer, which is very easily cotrollable. Aquaplaining on front wheels is particularly annoying.
 
Dins said:
In the BMW Driver's Training they asked the same question, with the same answer.

Their reasoning was, that if the fronts do go, all you get is (fairly) safe understeer. Because the majority of drivers cannot control sudden oversteer, it is far more dangerous if the rears lose traction, or even worse, have a catastrophic failure.

This seems like a logical approach, as even an unskilled person has an easier time preventing understeer by driving accordingly. Snap oversteer is an unknown situation for most, often causing the driver to react incorrectly.
Click to expand...

That's what I would've thought too - for the vast, vast majority of drivers understeer is a lot safer (this is coming from someone who's witnessed a person driving on a skid pan and letting go of the wheel when the rear snapped loose. Several times in succession. Every time it happened. Even though there was an advanced driving instructor sitting next to them trying - but failing - to coach them).
 
H0nzik said:
Well I understand that when it comes to RWD cars but with FWD cars, the worn tyres on front wheel just further enhance the already bad understeer, which, in a FWD car, I find a lot more dangerous than occasional oversteer, which is very easily cotrollable. Aquaplaining on front wheels is particularly annoying.
Click to expand...

The rule applies to all layouts. The problem is not accelerating, which is where layout becomes important. The issue is stability through corners or very low grip situations, such as aquaplaining.

Not being able to accelerate is less of a problem than spinning out.
 
Dins said:
The rule applies to all layouts. The problem is not accelerating, which is where layout becomes important. The issue is stability through corners or very low grip situations, such as aquaplaining.

Not being able to accelerate is less of a problem than spinning out.
Click to expand...

Well I don't think you can really appreciate the problems with understeer in a FWD car with a heavy torqy engine, like mine. The problem is that in low grip situation you continue straight on. On the other hand, rear wheels spinning out is a situation that happens to me like twice in a year, usually when I actively try to destabilise the car to explore its handling limits.
 
Dins said:
The rule applies to all layouts. The problem is not accelerating, which is where layout becomes important. The issue is stability through corners or very low grip situations, such as aquaplaining.

Not being able to accelerate is less of a problem than spinning out.
Click to expand...

An easy way to demonstrate this is to get a dinky toy car and a rubber band like the mailman uses. Wrap the rubber band around the front wheels, and give it a good whack in the forward direction on a larget table or your floor. then do the same for the rear wheels. The blocked front wheels one will just go straight on, while the one with the rear wheels will violently spin in all directions. This is because the rear wheels provide directional stability. Directional stability is more important than steering.

H0nzik said:
Well I don't think you can really appreciate the problems with understeer in a FWD car with a heavy torqy engine, like mine. The problem is that in low grip situation you continue straight on. On the other hand, rear wheels spinning out is a situation that happens to me like twice in a year, usually when I actively try to destabilise the car to explore its handling limits.
Click to expand...

We're not talking about situations where you're acting like an idiot, but stuff like aquaplaning on wet roads.
 
Adunaphel said:
An easy way to demonstrate this is to get a dinky toy car and a rubber band like the mailman uses. Wrap the rubber band around the front wheels, and give it a good whack in the forward direction on a larget table or your floor. then do the same for the rear wheels. The blocked front wheels one will just go straight on, while the one with the rear wheels will violently spin in all directions. This is because the rear wheels provide directional stability. Directional stability is more important than steering.



We're not talking about situations where you're acting like an idiot, but stuff like aquaplaning on wet roads.
Click to expand...

Well what I'm saying is that unless I'm driving like an idiot, it is just impossible to make the rear wheels spin out and even if they do, it is extremely easy to correct it. Stability is important, but FWD cars are a bit too stable anyway. What you are talking about is good, when you want to continue straght on through the puddle of water, but sometimes it is also important to be able to change direction in order to avoid hitting an oncoming car. And that requires good thread depth on front tyres. I understand that you see it differently as you both drive RWD cars but that's how I feel it in my car.
 
H0nzik said:
Well what I'm saying is that unless I'm driving like an idiot, it is just impossible to make the rear wheels spin out and even if they do, it is extremely easy to correct it. Stability is important, but FWD cars are a bit too stable anyway. What you are talking about is good, when you want to continue straght on through the puddle of water, but sometimes it is also important to be able to change direction in order to avoid hitting an oncoming car. And that requires good thread depth on front tyres. I understand that you see it differently as you both drive RWD cars but that's how I feel it in my car.
Click to expand...

Before I start explaining endlessly why I am right and you are not, let me just put it this way:

If you are able to correct for oversteer consistently, you do not fall into the group concerning this advice. It is still good advice, but you have a better chance of catching an unstable vehicle.

However, during our training, we were also told this:
If you have lost control of the back, there is a good chance you will hit whatever it is you couldn't avoid with something other than the front. The front of your car has the highest energy absorption rating of all areas, so if you do crash, doing it head on is the best way to go.

Besides, I've never had trouble controlling understeer, even in a 2-tonne, FWD 250bhp Bonneville, while autocrossing in the rain.

You can always regain your line when understeering, but once a car has gone beyond a certain angle of oversteer, there is no way back.

Enough of that, tired of arguing.
 
H0nzik said:
I understand that you see it differently as you both drive RWD cars but that's how I feel it in my car.
Click to expand...

No, the difference is that both Dins and I have done advanced driving courses.
 
Adunaphel said:
No, the difference is that both Dins and I have done advanced driving courses.
Click to expand...


Actually so have I. They never mentioned this in the course, which is why I asked here. I sort of understand what you mean, but isn't that only for extreme circumstances?

You never ever oversteer when you're driving normally, unless the weather is extreme or you're being an idiot.
It is however, really easy to understeer in a powerful FWD car.
 
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