German car mag: Audi R8 vs. Corvette C6 shootout - Vette wins!

Wizegui said:
So does the XLR share the same transverse leaf spring design as the Corvette or does it have a conventional independent rear suspension setup with magnaride? To be fair, the XLR was made to be a cruiser, so the smoother Northstar engine makes sense. It isn't as fast as a Corvette, but then again it was probably never meant to be. It's just a shame that they never gave it the interior to match it's looks. Even the cheaper CTS has a much better interior than the XLR!
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Both have the same independent front and rear suspensions. Both are conventional long-short A arm setups. The only unusual bits are the transverse leaf springs at both the front and back end. So aside from some changes in damping and spring rate, yes they are the same on both cars and a leaf spring is at both ends (many people including some Vette owners don't realize that the leaf spring was used at both ends).
 
Wisheyehad1 said:
Both have the same independent front and rear suspensions. Both are conventional long-short A arm setups. The only unusual bits are the transverse leaf springs at both the front and back end. So aside from some changes in damping and spring rate, yes they are the same on both cars and a leaf spring is at both ends (many people including some Vette owners don't realize that the leaf spring was used at both ends).
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It appears you have stolen my job of writing out very long posts stating that (basically) the vette ain't the pile of trash using turn of the century Ford suspension designs.

Next time save yourself the effort and just tell everyone to search up some of my old vette posts :D (I have a nice one somewhere around here with a list of the various engines and their hp/torque/weight, the LS3 sits quite high on the list).

Oh and :welcome:
 
tomcat said:
The reason cars like the 911 Turbo, Gallardo, and F430 have a more compliant ride that works well with real roads, is because they also have adjustable settings for their suspension.
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Not all of 'em have that, and the porsche's of the past didn't (all) have bad rides. BMW's have proven that you don't have to have a harsh ride to get extremely good handling, Lotus has done the same. They just put a bit more money and effort into tuning the bits. GM has only recently gotten away from the "throw more rubber on it to make it handle" philosophy. The magnetic dampers now just allow now allow them to push the extremes of comfort and handling for a given spring.

wisheyehad1 said:
If GM loses the leaf spring on the C7 I suspect we will see many people claiming GM finally came to their senses. In reality they were clever when they implemented the widely spaced, twin mount, composite leaf spring set up. It's a marvel of suspension design efficiency and clever at that. It should be considered one of the technical high lights of the C4 Corvette.
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I've said before that if Ferrari or the Germans came up with this design, we'd have never heard a peep out of JC about it's existence. If a British maker did it, he'd be going on about how it's "a great innovation of an old technology."

To get to the heart of the question, leaf springs have no fundamental vehicle dynamic disadvantage with respect to coils. They can be progressive or fixed rate if desired. If the suspension system and vehicle packaging can accept the way the leaf must span the car then there is no disadvantage in using them save one, cost. The cost factor is huge.
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Any idea how much more it really costs for a manufacturer to produce a shitload of fiberglass springs vs a shitload of steel coils?

Seems to me a lot of the euro hatchbacks would take to a transverse design, especially fords twin-blade (or whatever they call it) suspension on the Focus. all thats left is to come up with the equivalent design for a damper.
 
the Interceptor said:
within 4.9 seconds accompanied by a slightly disappointing V8-roar compared to the Audi.
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Maybe they got a vette with a full-out the exhaust valve, but even so i still think their high.

[YOUTUBE]http://youtube.com/watch?v=FB8NcPvzui8[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfXqlwecTi8[/YOUTUBE]

Both stock- To me the Audi sounds more contrived, and although its a deeper sound it doesn't seem as raw or explosive. Still a good sound, its just that i completely fell for the LS3 after spending a 20 minute track session behind one. Same day we had a brand new RS4, and it wasn't bad, but it wasn't in the top 5,hell the MKV R32 was better.
 
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thedguy said:
Any idea how much more it really costs for a manufacturer to produce a shitload of fiberglass springs vs a shitload of steel coils?

Seems to me a lot of the euro hatchbacks would take to a transverse design, especially fords twin-blade (or whatever they call it) suspension on the Focus. all thats left is to come up with the equivalent design for a damper.
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I've never heard exact costs and I sure that GM isn't interested in sharing. I have heard that the cost difference is enough to really mater. I know that's not an exact value.

The rear suspension on the Eruo hatches is often not a great candidate for the leaf springs as far as I can tell. In many of the little hatches they use either a twist bean or systems similar to Ford's low profile rear suspension from the Focus. In both cases you generally do not have a coil over spring. Instead you have a long thin damper that extends up above the load floor but off to the sides where it is out of the way (Ford was using that basic design as far back as the Mk1 Fiesta). The manufacture then uses a beehive shaped spring that can compress almost flat. That spring is located under the floor boards and inboard of the damper. By placing the coil and the damper separately the companies avoid the packaging issue they would have with a coil over.

Had they used coil overs they likely would have needed to place the spring at a height above the wheel. Often the rear dampers are close enough to the wheel to make placing the coils next to the wheel (low on the shock) impossible. If the springs were placed high on the damper the center line of the shock must lean into the cargo area more (or you will have bumps in the body to clear the springs. We would also need to intrude on the cargo area where the spring comes inside of the shock. This is something that is much easier to illustrate than to actually describe ;)

So why wouldn't the Corvette use separate dampers and springs. Well I can only speculate. A number of performance cars do use this setup in back. I believe BMW uses it on at least some generations of the 3 and 5 series. Ford and Jag used it on the LS/S-type. Nissan uses it on the 350Z. However, I suspect the particular design of the Corvette's chassis makes it harder to install the correct hard points. In the back of the Corvette the main structure is two massive frame rails and their cross braces. There is no hard structure above the wheels. The leaf spring happens to package nicely in the Corvette because it allows the shocks to attach right at the top of the frame rail. The spring happily connects to the bottom of the chassis with no need for fancy hard points.

BTW, when I defend the use of the leaf springs I'm not actually claiming the execution was better, only that it's use is not a fundamental mistake. The proof it in the pudding with cars. Often people see car A does better than B and attribute the difference to the obvious mechanical differences when in fact the difference may have a lot more to do with many subtle differences and better total execution rather than any one big difference.
 
Ottobon said:
Maybe they got a vette with a full-out the exhaust valve, but even so i still think their high.

[vid R8]

[vid C6]

Both stock- To me the Audi sounds more contrived, and although its a deeper sound it doesn't seem as raw or explosive. Still a good sound, its just that i completely fell for the LS3 after spending a 20 minute track session behind one. Same day we had a brand new RS4, and it wasn't bad, but it wasn't in the top 5,hell the MKV R32 was better.
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Those videos aren't very representative of the respective cars. First of all, the R8 pointed inwards the hall, so the sound of the exhaust will be cloaked by a lot of reflections from the naked walls (everyone who has been in such a hall knows they sound pretty hollow). Then, the sound recording of the Vette was overamplified to an extent, which adds distortion and makes it sound "snottier" than it actually is.

Here's a comparison I'd call fair:

R8:
[youtube]zRGXZlb-WJY[/youtube]

C6:
[youtube]q7j51CAKh3Q[/youtube]
In my book, they sound pretty equal. The Vette sounds a tad "dirtier", while the Audi snarls a bit more. Taking into account that the Vettes engine is so much bigger, it doesn't sound better than the R8, which is what you'd expect it to do. And that's exactly what they said in the review.

Besides, the exhaust systems of the R8 and the RS4 are not equal, so the sounds won't be equal either.
 
Having spent time in a C6, they aren't that great sounding when it comes to V8s. Ford does a great job with the sound of their V8s. I honestly think the Ford V8s sound as good as any OEM cross plane V8 on the market. Ferrari's sound different (and good) but they are not cross plane. This opinion is based only on sound and does not account for character, smoothness or any other performance metric.
 
Wisheyehad1 said:
Having spent time in a C6, they aren't that great sounding when it comes to V8s. Ford does a great job with the sound of their V8s. I honestly think the Ford V8s sound as good as any OEM cross plane V8 on the market. Ferrari's sound different (and good) but they are not cross plane. This opinion is based only on sound and does not account for character, smoothness or any other performance metric.
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IMHO, ive heard several modern Ferrari V8s drive by on regular streets at normal neighborhood street speeds (30-45 mph) includes F360s and F430s and to be honest, the engine/exhaust noise is kind of annoying. It doesnt really sing unless you drive them at fast speeds, with the throttle opened up at high revs, but just around town, its intrusive and higher pitched and not pleasant to hear. I quite enjoy the aston's much throatier V8 in both town and high speeds.

I think the worst sounding V8s in my recent memory are the Ford V8s, from the older generatino 5.0 L engine to the current 4.3? in the current gen mustangs, esp with the exhaust freed up, it sounds lumpy and kind of junky.
 
the Interceptor said:
In my book, they sound pretty equal. The Vette sounds a tad "dirtier", while the Audi snarls a bit more. Taking into account that the Vettes engine is so much bigger, it doesn't sound better than the R8, which is what you'd expect it to do. And that's exactly what they said in the review.
.[/QUOTE

I'd take the R8 if they both sounded that way on the inside, but having heard the vette from the outside i rather hope that maybe with the open exhaust system its sounds like i heard it, but on the inside.

Wisheyehad1 said:
Having spent time in a C6, they aren't that great sounding when it comes to V8s. Ford does a great job with the sound of their V8s. I honestly think the Ford V8s sound as good as any OEM cross plane V8 on the market. Ferrari's sound different (and good) but they are not cross plane. This opinion is based only on sound and does not account for character, smoothness or any other performance metric.
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If where talking sounds that the driver hears, then yes, that makes perfect sense. I don't know what it is about fords in general, but however they sound dampen the cars they seem to be more capable then most at still transmitting all the exhaust noise you want to hear.

edkwon said:
I think the worst sounding V8s in my recent memory are the Ford V8s, from the older generatino 5.0 L engine to the current 4.3? in the current gen mustangs, esp with the exhaust freed up, it sounds lumpy and kind of junky.
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Well your wrong about the engine, but then i have no idea how people setup the mustangs around where you live, generally if you get one cool kid in school using rasppacks (Glasspacks) and tubes that are way too big then you get a whole slew of followers, no matter how dumb the trend.

To be honest the AMV8 and the 5.0 sounds remarkably similar to me.

[YOUTUBE]http://youtube.com/watch?v=y9knn9exIGw[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://youtube.com/watch?v=5LsSWI8KZdQ[/YOUTUBE]

The only difference to me is that the Aston revs higher, anyways "junky" cars are usually more fun.
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I agree with you in the Ford V8 bit. Last year I was at one round in the Spanish GT series at Albacete, one of the entries was a Marcos Mantis GT3, which is powered by a 550 hp NA 4,6-liter Cobra V8, it really outscreamed/thundered that LSx in the Mosler.
 
Wisheyehad1 said:
Having spent time in a C6, they aren't that great sounding when it comes to V8s. Ford does a great job with the sound of their V8s. I honestly think the Ford V8s sound as good as any OEM cross plane V8 on the market. Ferrari's sound different (and good) but they are not cross plane. This opinion is based only on sound and does not account for character, smoothness or any other performance metric.
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I'm not a Ford guy, but I will definitely admit that Fords done a damn good job at making a good sounding v8 with the mod motor (without the blowers anyway). They sound especially good with opened up exhaust :D

edkwon said:
IMHO, ive heard several modern Ferrari V8s drive by on regular streets at normal neighborhood street speeds (30-45 mph) includes F360s and F430s and to be honest, the engine/exhaust noise is kind of annoying. It doesnt really sing unless you drive them at fast speeds, with the throttle opened up at high revs, but just around town, its intrusive and higher pitched and not pleasant to hear. I quite enjoy the aston's much throatier V8 in both town and high speeds.
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Finally! Someone else sees my problem with ferrari engines. They only really sound good when being revved. If they are accelerating slowly (like in high gear/high speed) or cruising they sound down right irritating to me.
 
thedguy said:
[...]They only really sound good when being revved. If they are accelerating slowly (like in high gear/high speed) or cruising they sound down right irritating to me.
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I guess the Point is having a great Noise when you want to, but not anoying everybody all the time with your intrusive engine-noise. I really like that V8 bubble at idle or low reves that I know from older Us-V8 ... sbut it get?s annoying when it?s never really silent. I get pissed when some bloke with sports-exhausts parks infront of my house and keeps the engine running while waiting for someone. I hate that. Cars should be (rather) quiet when they are not reved.

Or am I misunderstanding your Point?
 
thedguy said:
Finally! Someone else sees my problem with ferrari engines. They only really sound good when being revved. If they are accelerating slowly (like in high gear/high speed) or cruising they sound down right irritating to me.
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You could just skip the Ferrari altogether and go for the car that sounds better at all times.

Not a great review, but there is actually more sound from the car than from a soundtrack for a change.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5GfOt6ETK8&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
 
edkwon said:
IMHO, ive heard several modern Ferrari V8s drive by on regular streets at normal neighborhood street speeds (30-45 mph) includes F360s and F430s and to be honest, the engine/exhaust noise is kind of annoying. It doesnt really sing unless you drive them at fast speeds, with the throttle opened up at high revs, but just around town, its intrusive and higher pitched and not pleasant to hear. I quite enjoy the aston's much throatier V8 in both town and high speeds.

I think the worst sounding V8s in my recent memory are the Ford V8s, from the older generatino 5.0 L engine to the current 4.3? in the current gen mustangs, esp with the exhaust freed up, it sounds lumpy and kind of junky.
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I beg to differ. Mind you there is a bit of blower scream.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87n8jhVO784

More glorious twin screw music with the 4.6 baritone in the back
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcGEGG3jjAk[/YOUTUBE]
 
actually more sound from the car than from a soundtrack for a change.
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Dude don't even start or I will hijack the shit out of this thread. I HATE it when soundtrack is in the way of listening to the car, especially when they go "listen to this engine!!!" and it's all soundtrack!!!! :mad:
 
efoolution said:
I guess the Point is having a great Noise when you want to, but not anoying everybody all the time with your intrusive engine-noise. I really like that V8 bubble at idle or low reves that I know from older Us-V8 ... sbut it get?s annoying when it?s never really silent. I get pissed when some bloke with sports-exhausts parks infront of my house and keeps the engine running while waiting for someone. I hate that. Cars should be (rather) quiet when they are not reved.
Click to expand...

That's my point, i've heard F360s and F430s that dont have active butterfly valve exhaust technology like Gallardos and Aston V8s do, and when they drive by at low speed on a city street (say 30-40 mph) they are still loud, conspicuous, but annoying sounding. Kinda like seeing that gorgeous supermodel in the morning without her makeup on, makes you wonder what the hell is going on.

The 599 GTB however does have active valve technology and the exhuast noise is pretty quiet and unobtrusive when simply driving by in town speeds.
 
bartboy9891 said:
You could just skip the Ferrari altogether and go for the car that sounds better at all times.

Not a great review, but there is actually more sound from the car than from a soundtrack for a change.
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V10's and I-5's rarely sound bad. Lets see how many posts till someone goes "OMG YOU ARE SO F-ING WRONG YOU BLEEDING ARTARD! LISTEN TO THIS VOLVO WITH 10INCH EXHAUST!" :tease:
 
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