Can someone explain to me why anyone wants to vote for McCain/Palin?

the Interceptor said:
But does the doctor become a doctor to get rich or to help people? And where I live, doctors do earn more than enough money.
Click to expand...

As Blind_Io already pointed out, until medical school is free or heavily subsidized by the government, doctors will need to make enough money to pay off student loans and other debt associated with medical school/college.
 
Well, doctors don't pay anything to become doctors here other than the costs anyone faces when at college, so...
 
the Interceptor said:
Well, doctors don't pay anything to become doctors here other than the costs anyone faces when at college, so...
Click to expand...

This is a serious problem in America though. University education costs a lot more, especially at the abundant number of private ones.

In Canada an undergrad degree in whole costs something like ~$25,000, that's a year's tuition at some private universities in the US.

Family doctors here in BC get about $75 from the government for each patient they see. I know my GP always moans about money problems, mind you she's a single parent.

But why can't America subsidize higher education? Sure you have a large population, but you have an economy and budget to match it.
 
That last thing the US government needs right now is more expenses. Deficit spending has to stop now, and the best way to do it is to cut costs.
 
the Interceptor said:
But does the doctor become a doctor to get rich or to help people? And where I live, doctors do earn more than enough money.
Click to expand...


In a capitalist society that is the wrong answer. You cannot limit the amount of money someone makes just because you think they have enough of it. If you did that, no one would have any motivation to stay in business!
 
Scott said:
In a capitalist society that is the wrong answer. You cannot limit the amount of money someone makes just because you think they have enough of it. If you did that, no one would have any motivation to stay in business!
Click to expand...

Some things are better if they aren't totally capitalist in nature, and one of those in my mind is medicine.

The quality of medical coverage people receive shouldn't be according to how much money they make, or how much money the doctor stands to make. It's a basic right that all humans should have, regardless of money.

And as for the US budget not being able to handle universal health care, there are always other places you can cut costs... I'm not going to go into a whole tangent about how much money is being wasted on wars halfway around the globe while American citizens are struggling to live healthy lives.

It's never too late either. If they cut down wasteful spending and malfeasance I'm sure there will be enough money left over in a few years to devote to health programs.

Obviously it's not as easy as introducing free health care day after tomorrow, but America needs to stop using excuses. So many other nations find resources for programs like these, America should be no different. It's all relative, if you have a 300 million strong economy I'm sure there's enough money to make sure the poor don't get trampled.
 
Given the choice between socialized medicine and the current system here in the US, I'll take the current system, I want my doctor to have some financial incentive to keep my ass alive.

There was a story about a year ago of a Canadian who's doctor suspected she had a brain tumor the only way to tell for sure was a CT scan which only had a six week waiting list, ohh and to see the doctor after the scan would be another six weeks. She traveled to the US and was seen by a doctor, scanned diagnosed, and went to surgery to remove the tumor all within a week. It was a very aggressive cancer and had she waited 12 weeks to figure out what it was she would have been past the point where medicine could help her. I'm sure the medical bills sucked after that, but I'll bet she feels it was worth every penny.
 
Moving towards a system like that in Canada would be a major transition, right now the priority should be to make healthcare more affordable. There are too many people (myself included) that won't see doctors because it's too expensive. I don't need to explain why that's a problem.

And yes, the Canadian system has some downsides. Doesn't mean that the entire thing is rotten.
 
Susurrate said:
Given the choice between socialized medicine and the current system here in the US, I'll take the current system, I want my doctor to have some financial incentive to keep my ass alive.
Click to expand...

This is why I say Americans need to stop making excuses. I thought a doctor's incentive in keeping you alive was their Hippocratic oath, their love of what they do and their wanting to do human kind a service.

I didn't think doctors anywhere viewed themselves, or were viewed by others, as being business people after making greater profits. If this is the case there's bigger issues here.

Yes, universal health care would shrink most doctors' income, but that's no excuse to avoid it. There's a reason why doctors in most countries don't live very spectacular lives whereas most American doctors seem very wealthy. Yes I realize it's very hard work being a doctor, but that doesn't change my views.

And for the record, Canada's universal health care does not function very well or even properly at times. The aforementioned waitlists are just one problem... but it's not as if people are dying left, right and centre while waitlisted in Canada. Waitlists are usually for more routine issues.

Oh, and waitlists in the Canadian medical system would be a lot less prevalent if Canadian doctors didn't stand to make oodles more money by working in the US. Especially when they can get the cheap education here and make the big bucks in the US. So please don't be so quick to point fingers.
 
AiR said:
Why would doctors care who pays them? Either it's the state or its the patient, in any case they are getting paid.
Click to expand...

Look up the regulations regarding TriCare, a government health insurance company.

If a doctor is currently taking new patients it is against federal law to turn away a TriCare patient. You must take them

The doctor is then prohibited from "balance billing" the unpaid part of his/her fee to the patient if TriCare doesn't cover the doctor's fees.

So it takes away a doctor's ability to screen his patients or pick his cases, and it says that TriCare determines what he gets paid, even if what TriCare pays won't even cover the overhead. You don't work for free, why should we?
 
Shawn said:
But why can't America subsidize higher education? Sure you have a large population, but you have an economy and budget to match it.
Click to expand...

This is the big problem I have with socialism in general, and specifically with US government programs.

When gas prices are high, they talk about congressional investigations to see why the companies are ripping off the public.

When education prices are high, we talk about government subsidies. Why is the price gouging of universities not being investigated?

Private Universities are highly profitable and pay their deans hundreds of thousands, and in some cases, millions of dollars in salary. Universities such as Harvard are swimming in cash from their alumni and invest in real estate holdings and such.

The real question is, why is a university education so expensive in the first place? What is the real cost, and why can't tuition be based on the real cost?

I feel the same is the problem with our health care system. The problem is, why is everything so damned expensive in the first place, and why can't it be based on actual costs? Not how do we get the government to pay for it.

When I was a kid, my dad had health insurance through his company, and back in those days it was a perk, like a 401K or profit sharing, the company offerred it to attract employees. When he left that job, we still saw our doctors and I remember my mom paying for the visit out of pocket. This was around the time Ted Kennedy was passing his HMO creation bills of the 1970s. Oh, you guys didn't know Ted Kennedy gave us the very same creation that he lambasted in the 1990s?

Have you ever looked at an itemized bill for a hospital stay, for example? Why did I get charged $30 for a single aspirin?

IMO the problem is everybody bilks everybody else through insurance (because the insurance pays for it, right?). That's how you get $30 aspirin.

Adding a layer of government bureacracy on top of all that is only going to make it worse because they can then draw on the public trough.

We have to get back to having medical care prices BASED ON ACTUAL COST, and one should only need insurance for catastrophic care such as a heart attack or transplant; other than that, the average person should be able to pay for care out of pocket.

And, on a side note, why is Legal Care so expensive? We need the government to limit legal fees and more importantly the size of the awarded damages to stop it from being so expensive. Oh, I forgot, that will never happen because Lawyers are the ones who go into government and it's OK FOR THEM to make ludicrous amounts of money off of basically NOTHING.
 
Last edited:
Shawn said:
This is why I say Americans need to stop making excuses. I thought a doctor's incentive in keeping you alive was their Hippocratic oath, their love of what they do and their wanting to do human kind a service.

I didn't think doctors anywhere viewed themselves, or were viewed by others, as being business people after making greater profits. If this is the case there's bigger issues here.
Click to expand...

Yeah, when I took a job working in a hospital in high school, I was kind of shocked to learn that they are run by companies. I don't know what I thought before that, but I didn't think they would be run as a company. But they are.
 
Blind_Io said:
Look up the regulations regarding TriCare, a government health insurance company.

If a doctor is currently taking new patients it is against federal law to turn away a TriCare patient. You must take them

The doctor is then prohibited from "balance billing" the unpaid part of his/her fee to the patient if TriCare doesn't cover the doctor's fees.

So it takes away a doctor's ability to screen his patients or pick his cases, and it says that TriCare determines what he gets paid, even if what TriCare pays won't even cover the overhead. You don't work for free, why should we?
Click to expand...

I happen to be covered by Tricare, and civilian doctors HATE seeing me for that very reason. There is a very large group of doctors that will no longer accept my insurance because of how crappy Tricare is on the business side of things. They typically only pay 35-55% of the total bill.
 
@ janstett: health care is a very good example why the government should step in there. Buing medicine and seeing the doctor is so expensive because it's a system guided by capitalism. It's designed to make profit, just like any other systems guided by companies. But when the government steps in, the system is changed to not be about profit, rather than financing just itself.

That's just the theory of course, in reality, there are problems, too. Nevertheless, it's nice to know that I'll always get a treatment when I need it.
 
Last edited:
Scott said:
In a capitalist society that is the wrong answer. You cannot limit the amount of money someone makes just because you think they have enough of it. If you did that, no one would have any motivation to stay in business!
Click to expand...
That thinking got us into the current financial meltdown.
 
Firecat said:
There are too many people (myself included) that won't see doctors because it's too expensive. I don't need to explain why that's a problem.
Click to expand...

No, there are people like you who won't see doctors because you're not sick. I've been to a doctor 3 times in the past 4 years, each time for a routine checkup, each time for less than $80 cash.

See, I'm one of those crazy bastards Michael Moore and Barack Obama count as "uninsured/under-insured" just because I'm wise/healthy enough to buy a high-deductible plan for unforeseen catastrophes, saving the remainder in a cash account for the mundane.
 
off topic

off topic

this forum is getting off topic

joe the plumber is going to vote for mc cain/palin









he told me so:mrgreen:
 
optimusprime said:
No, there are people like you who won't see doctors because you're not sick. I've been to a doctor 3 times in the past 4 years, each time for a routine checkup, each time for less than $80 cash.

See, I'm one of those crazy bastards Michael Moore and Barack Obama count as "uninsured/under-insured" just because I'm wise/healthy enough to buy a high-deductible plan for unforeseen catastrophes, saving the remainder in a cash account for the mundane.
Click to expand...

Could you possible tell us what kind of health insurance you have? I'm curious to see how much you pay and how much your deductible is.

So if you have a cold you'll go to your family doctor for a checkup and that will cost you about $80. What about anything more serious? Mainly hospital stays... I know from personal experience that someone without insurance in the US would have a very hard time being hospitalized. Just staying overnight will cost you thousands of dollars.
 
Shawn said:
Could you possible tell us what kind of health insurance you have? I'm curious to see how much you pay and how much your deductible is.

So if you have a cold you'll go to your family doctor for a checkup and that will cost you about $80. What about anything more serious? Mainly hospital stays... I know from personal experience that someone without insurance in the US would have a very hard time being hospitalized. Just staying overnight will cost you thousands of dollars.
Click to expand...

A $5000 deductible costs $30/month.

Of course, I don't go to the doctor if I have a cold, mostly because I'm smart enough to know that the treatment for a cold is to HTFU. I'm a virile young man - I've never had anything more serious than the flu. Of course, if I get in a car accident or come down with flesh-eating bacteria, I'm out $5k. Since both of those are relatively unlikely (I don't drive much), I've made the statistically correct decision.
 
^ Interesting... and for that do you get complete coverage?

By cold I meant flu, I wouldn't go to the doctor for a common cold either. It's useless and clogs up the already slow system.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top