Gay Marriage / California Prop 8 (Olbermann Video)

Why don't pro-gay marriage supports put any blame on Clinton? He's the one who signed the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996. Civil unions would be recognized by the federal government if that had not passed, then each state could pass civil union laws (like California) that guarantees the same marital rights as spouses, but under a different name.

Actually, scratch that. Pro-gay marriage supporters want the word "marriage" to be redefined to include same-sex couples, no matter if they get equal rights. This is NOT about equal rights, it's an ideological battle (secular vs. religious).

stiggie said:
I don't see how I, or anyone else has the right to tell to people who love each other that they can't marry.

As for the Bible's take on homosexuality, I'm going to have to post the Open Letter to Dr Laura-

You know, bringing up the archaic Mosaic Law gets old real fast. If you understood what it was then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
 
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Because Clinton is the Democrat's sacred cow... or is that Hillary? It was also Clinton who got the ball rolling on this damn credit crisis; his short-sighted policies are now biting us in the ass.
 
IMO marriage can never be looked from just a legal standpoint, religion will always play its part. The people of California voted that a Homosexual marriage is now illegal. Now they voted in that way because they believe in God and the bibles stance on Homosexuality. Thats why you can't separate the two.
For the bit I highlighted, Homosexuals don't practice religion is because of the bibles stance.

Marriage is not necessarily an entirely-religious act. Look at the huge rise in humanist weddings in the UK.

Also, the Bible's stance on homosexuality is clear. My Bible (GNB) says (in Leviticus 20:13) "If a man has sexual relations with another man, they have done a disgusting thing, and both shall be put to death. They are responsible for their own death."

I don't think anyone's actively saying we should kill homosexuals, though, despite it being fairly explicit in the Bible?

cvrefugee said:
Actually, scratch that. Pro-gay marriage supporters want the word "marriage" to be redefined to include same-sex couples, no matter if they get equal rights. This is NOT about equal rights, it's an ideological battle (secular vs. religious).

It is, at it's most basic, a battle about equal rights. Saying 'men and women are allowed to be married, but you two men can't, you have to have a civil partnership instead' is giving one set of people one thing and another set a different thing. Yes, the two may have (in the end) the same effects, but you're still saying x for one group but y for another.

Certain people are trying to turn it into an ideological battle, sure, but on both sides there are dissenters. The United Church of Canada and the United Church of Christ (in the States) are both for same-sex marriages and indeed perform them, which kinda muddies the water regarding your 'black and white secular vs religious' argument.

You know, bringing up the archaic Mosaic Law gets old real fast. If you understood what it was then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I don't know what it is; could you possibly explain for me?
 
The only problem I have with this law is it's legalized discrimination. I really don't give a flying fuck who can marry who. The only effect it has on me is less amount of tax revenue in the system due to the money lost (someone gave me a number on how much CA would make off all the marriages but I can't recall what it was).

I got quite irritated by all the damn "yes on 8" signs that say on each one "protect marriage"... FROM WHAT? It's not like straight people have done much to honor this "sacred institution" by getting hammered/high and driving to vegas and getting married and divorced the next morning. Or by having a 50% or more divorce rate. Real fucking sacred institution that is.https://pic.armedcats.net/t/th/thedguy/2008/11/12/jerkit.gif


It seems odd to me that Connecticut allows gay marriage but California doesn't. I would never expect that.

The only parts of California that are mostly liberal are the Big coastal cities. Take a look at voting base on the counties and you'll find that the rest of the state is the exact opposite. One thing of note that ALL of southern California voted yes on this, even LA.

This division of opinions is why many have wanted the state split in 2.
 
This is pretty plain to me, and I'm Christian. Why shouldn't homosexuals have the right to marriage? It's not like the state is forcing Churches to marry homos, religions still have the right to decide whether they marry homos or not.

As for the Bible's take on homosexuality, I'm going to have to post the Open Letter to Dr Laura-
It's a good counter-point, Just hope people don't take it the wrong way. Most legitimate Christians know to take the Old Testament with a gram of salt. It's the overall morals Christianity teaches, and you can't just quote half the bible then ignore the other half.
 
That was a very interesting video. I didn't realise they had reversed that decision in California. I'm Catholic and not gay but think the fact that gay people aren't allowed to marry is a travesty - it's not like straight people have done a great job with the whole marriage thing.
 
I'm surprised everyone here is so accepting and open-minded. I thought there would be the one or two inevitable nut jobs siding with the religious extreme.

:cheers:
 
That being said I find it strange that they want to get married when the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Then again i find it strange that people who don't necessarily believe in God want to get married.
That?s because marriage is nothing Christian or religious at all. It isn?t even a christian "invention". You can believe in Zeuss, Vishnu or nothing at all and still be married to someone else. Marriage is a bond/promise/contract between (usally) two People that want to live together. That?s all there is to it when you cut to the basics. The Rest that?s been spun around this all in various societies and religions, hasn?t got much to do with the actual thing.

Fun Fact 1: In Christianity, Homosexual marriage (or partnership) has been "illegal" since the year 340 ... quite a while after the Religion was founded.

Fun Fact 2: The Marriage Ceremony in christian Chruches (or Europe in general) wasn?t obligatory to marry someone until the 1600s.

On the Topic of Prop 8, I have to say that I was really surprised that this passed. In California, I would have thought otherwise.
The government gives tax benefits to married couples because they are supposed to start families, ensuring the future of the human race. I have absolutely nothing against homosexuals or homosexual marriage but to be honest I don't see why they should get any tax benefits
My take on this matter is similar ... but also different. I think tax support for families with children is a good and nessesary thing. But I really don?t see why we should give married hetero couples without children any support. Give support to those who actually raise children, married or not, heterosexual or not. It?s pretty unfair that married couples without children benefit without doing anything for society and on the other hand people that raise children only without a marriage (heterosexual as well as homosexuals) don?t get help like that. And that?s exactly what?s happening big time, People just marry for tax-cuts, not for starting a family.
Tax benefits should be about the children, not the act of "marriage", and let?s face it ... having children and marriage don?t go hand in hand anymore today (actually for quite a while now), time to update the laws to the present, we don?t live in the 1950ies anymore, and denial won?t change that.
because they aren't very likely to have kids.
You?d be surprised how many homosexuals actually have own children. The story a father noticing in his (e.g.) 40ies that he is gay when he already has children, isn?t something that happens only in a million. It happens more often than you think. Same with Lesbians. Society has banned homosexuality for a long time so it often doesn?t come out for a long time after the Person has tried to live the "normal" life.
 
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This is pretty plain to me, and I'm Christian. Why shouldn't homosexuals have the right to marriage?

I'm surprised everyone here is so accepting and open-minded. I thought there would be the one or two inevitable nut jobs siding with the religious extreme.

:cheers:

Agreed. I'm a Christian (though I hesitate to group myself with the word "Christian" because of the crappy way some Christians treat others) and I think it's silly to attempt pass laws like this or to get worried over what someone else is doing with their personal life. It all comes down to merely giving other people freedom to make their own choices (after all, freedom was what this country was founded upon).....even if you don't agree or understand why someone makes such a choice, it's still their choice, and at the end of the day, it doesn't affect you, so why bothering worrying about the choices others make in their own personal life?

I personally am not gay, but if other people want to be gay or even marry another of the same sex, they have the liberty to do so, even though it's something I would never personally do, but other people are free to do what they please. I don't think it's right for one group of people to try to say what another group can and can't do with their personal lives.

Liberty one to another. Let freedom ring.
 
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I don't know what it is; could you possibly explain for me?

The Mosaic Law was the law, or commandments, given to Moses by God. These laws, or commandments, are found in the Torah (Old Testament). Christians believe that when Jesus came he replaced the Mosaic Law with something greater and all-encompassing. This can be found in the New Testament, in Matthew 5:17-48. Here are some good verses that explain what I mean.

17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

27. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

38. Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

43. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Then in Matthew 22:34-40 we see what the two great commandments are:

34. But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36. Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38. This is the first and great commandment.
39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets

So when some Christians use parts of the Old Testament to prove a point, others will point out parts (usually ridiculous) of the Mosaic Law that are not relevant or do not apply anymore.
 
I'd +rep ya blind but I can't. I also have to say this thread is really interesting, mostly because people seem to agree and not yell at each other. I'd + rep this thread if I could
 
You can, there is a tool on the top right where you can rate the thread out of 5.
 
I agree with everything that the guy in the video said. I want MSNBC even more now.
 
You know, bringing up the archaic Mosaic Law gets old real fast. If you understood what it was then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Its funny you should say that. Most of the "archaic Mosaic Law" mentioned in the Open Letter to Dr Laura comes from the same part of the Bible that the homophobes use to say it is a sin.

Personally, it is not a religious issue as far as I am concerned. I stopped being a Christian years ago and couldn't care less what the Bible says people can or can't do. It is about equal rights. There should be nothing that a straight person is allowed to do that a gay person is not. It is discrimination, no matter how people try to justify it.
 
You have to remember though that youtube comments are typed by idiots. People on here respect each others opinion.

Anyway, let me start by saying i have nothing against homosexuals and I think they should do what will make them happy. That being said I find it strange that they want to get married when the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Then again i find it strange that people who don't necessarily believe in God want to get married.

Just my 2 cents.

Not everyone is Christian, and thus the Bible does not apply in a universal fashion.
 
You know, bringing up the archaic Mosaic Law gets old real fast. If you understood what it was then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Indeed, the age can only be described in parameters that are...biblical. :mrgreen:
 
Its funny you should say that. Most of the "archaic Mosaic Law" mentioned in the Open Letter to Dr Laura comes from the same part of the Bible that the homophobes use to say it is a sin.

Personally, it is not a religious issue as far as I am concerned. I stopped being a Christian years ago and couldn't care less what the Bible says people can or can't do. It is about equal rights. There should be nothing that a straight person is allowed to do that a gay person is not. It is discrimination, no matter how people try to justify it.

AFAIK, homosexuality is only mentioned in the Old Testament, so you're right about that. However, the New Testament talks about the sin of fornication, which covers all types of sexual sin. I just wish some "Christians" would stop quoting parts of the Old Testament that fit in with their "Christian" beliefs while ignoring others.
 
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