US Automaker Bailout - FAIL in the Senate

Blind_Io

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If you turn on C-SPAN2 right now, you'll be able to see the Senate vote on the auto bailout bill, which appears set to fail . Negotiations between Republicans and Democrats were apparently very close to a deal. According to Bob Corker (R-TN) speaking as I type, "three words" separate the two sides on the deal, but an agreement could not be reached. Hence, when it goes to vote in the next few minutes, it is likely to fail Chris Dodd, visibly upset, preceded Corker on the floor. Stay tuned.

Okay, may as well liveblog the remainder of the proceedings. Richard Shelby spoke briefly, basically saying he's voting no.

10:34 PM: Debbie Stabenow (D-MI) speaking now. Repeats the "not a bailout, it's a bridge loan" position. Thanks Dodd for his work. Stabenow is obviously upset here. The hangup is the UAW pay issue, and Stabenow is fairly distraught. "We are in serious trouble, ladies and gentlemen."

10:39 PM: Stabenow upping the drama. "The middle class hangs in the balance." Says that suppliers, manufacturing sector are in mortal danger. Pleads with the Senate for the votes on the existing bill. Asks for "3 months of time" to restructure the auto companies.

10:41PM: Stabenow finishes. here comes the cloture vote.

10:43 PM: C-SPAN flashing factoids while we wait for the roll call to be completed. Harry Reid (D-NV) has predicted the votes aren't there.

10:45 PM: Roll Call still going on. We're in the "D's." Mr. Dorgan...Mr. Durbin....Mr. Ensign....Bueller...

10:48 PM: Now we're in the "L's" as Senators mill about the floor BSing with one another

10:51 PM:
Inching closer. We're at "W"

Here we go....

Stragglers voting now...

10:55 PM: Michigan Sens. Stabenow and Levin having an animated conversation with Harry Reid on the floor.

10:57 PM: Votes continue to come in.

11:02 PM: Republicans who voted "Aye" include Arlen Specter (PA) and Sam Brownback (KS). More waiting as the official tally gets tabulated. Hillary Clinton's red jacket is likely visible from Mars.

11:05 PM: Did Kit Bond (R-MO) just change from "No" to "Aye"? Anyone else notice this, or did I mishear it the first time?

Ayes: 52
Nays: 35


Cloture was not invoked
. The bill fails.

Reid acknowledges that this won't be revisited until the new Senate convenes next year. Asks the President to consider using TARP money.

Senators continue to speak on the floor, but this essentially signifies the the end of the bailout debate for calendar year 2008. And now we wait to see what happens.
 
And this is why retaining the power of filibuster is a good thing for the opposition. Whew.
 
I really don't know what to think.

On one hand GM, Ford and Chrysler all deserve to go under for all making an inferior product. Rather than trying to compete with the imports they continued to rely on trucks, the hummer and mussel cars in a time that clearly did not need them. Yes a pony car will sell to that balding baby boomer with a ever growing gut but for how long can you try to save a sinking ship. Rather than keeping up with the market, they stagnated making the same stuff they had been making for years and they wonder why they are close to CHPT11.

The moment GM shows some progress with making its Saturn division into the north American Voxal (edit: Vauxhall) division (very smart move) they are thinking about killing the brand for a quick buck. Ford sheds most of its mazda share for what, a couple of bucks to keep afloat. Dodge produces a pony car that will likely sell for less than 3 model years before everyone who can afford one and wants one already has one. Ford developed TWO Focus's one being awesome and the other rubbish. I could go on forever

On the other hand, they cant go under. There are too many people employed by the auto industry. Just loosing one manufacture would spell disaster. At the end of the day they all have to stay afloat, even if it means that they are getting our money not through car sales, but through our tax money. I am not sure where I stand on this one. I hate the feeling of supporting them regardless of the fact that I think they are all run like crap.
 
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Looks like it was partially due to the UAW. What a f---'n surprise.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts.

The collapse came after bipartisan talks on the auto rescue broke down over GOP demands that the United Auto Workers union agree to steep wage cuts by 2009 to bring their pay into line with Japanese carmakers.
Majority Leader Harry Reid said he hoped President George W. Bush would tap the $700 billion Wall Street bailout fund for emergency aid to the automakers. General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC have said they could be weeks from collapse. Ford Motor Co. says it does not need federal help now, but its survival is far from certain.
The White House said it was evaluating its options in light of the breakdown.
"It's disappointing that Congress failed to act tonight," a White House statement said. "We think the legislation we negotiated provided an opportunity to use funds already appropriated for automakers and presented the best chance to avoid a disorderly bankruptcy while ensuring taxpayer funds only go to firms whose stakeholders were prepared to make difficult decisions to become viable."
The Senate rejected the bailout 52-35 on a procedural vote -- well short of the 60 required -- after the talks fell apart.
The implosion followed an unprecedented marathon negotiations at the Capitol among labor, the auto industry and lawmakers who bargained into the night in efforts to salvage the auto bailout at a time of soaring job losses and widespread economic turmoil.
The group came close to agreement, but it stalled over the UAW's refusal to agree to wage cuts before their current contract expires in 2011. Republicans, in turn, balked at giving the automakers federal aid.
Reid called the bill's collapse "a loss for the country," adding: "I dread looking at Wall Street tomorrow. It's not going to be a pleasant sight."
"In the midst of already deep and troubling economic times, we are about to add to that by walking away," said Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., the Banking Committee chairman who led negotiations on the package.
Alan Reuther, the UAW's legislative director, declined comment to reporters as he left a meeting room during the negotiations. Messages were left with Reuther and UAW spokesman Roger Kerson.
The stunning disintegration was eerily reminiscent of the defeat of the $700 billion Wall Street bailout in the House, which sent the Dow tumbling and lawmakers back to the drawing board to draft a new agreement to rescue financial institutions and halt a broader economic meltdown. That measure ultimately passed and was signed by Bush.
It wasn't immediately clear, however, how the auto aid measure might be resurrected in a bailout-fatigued postelection Congress, with Bush's influence at a low ebb.
Congressional Republicans were already in open revolt against Bush over an auto bailout deal the White House negotiated with congressional Democrats, passed by the House passed on Wednesday.
The momentum flagged even amid evidence of deepening economic meltdown. The government reported last week that the economy had lost more than a half-million jobs in November, the most in any month for more than 30 years.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/14-billion-auto-bailout-dies-apf-13813715.html
 
Anyone here still want to defend the UAW? GRtak? Anyone?

Yeah... UAW still doesn't get it. They had a choice - make the concessions and get reasonable pay for reasonable work, or make NO concessions and get NO pay for NO work. Looks like they'd rather be unemployed than make reasonable concessions.

These are the idiots who are telling us we should trust them to make quality cars? When they can't even make a common sense decision like this???

Yeah. The UAW can go DIE.

As for the bailout plans, someone on another forum pointed this out: "Who needs a ?car czar? when a federal bankruptcy judge will do the same job and charge a hell of a lot less?"
 
Yep the UAW is just as suicidal as the british unions were.
 
Anyone here still want to defend the UAW? GRtak? Anyone?

Yeah... UAW still doesn't get it. They had a choice - make the concessions and get reasonable pay for reasonable work, or make NO concessions and get NO pay for NO work. Looks like they'd rather be unemployed than make reasonable concessions.

These are the idiots who are telling us we should trust them to make quality cars? When they can't even make a common sense decision like this???

Yeah. The UAW can go DIE.

As for the bailout plans, someone on another forum pointed this out: "Who needs a ?car czar? when a federal bankruptcy judge will do the same job and charge a hell of a lot less?"

Breaking news, folks: Ron Gettelfinger is STILL a fucking idiot. Seriously, the toyota factory workers get on just fine without absurd benefits packages. Hell, they're sitting pretty right now, as they'll still have a company to work for next year.
 
Yeah... UAW still doesn't get it. They had a choice - make the concessions and get reasonable pay for reasonable work, or make NO concessions and get NO pay for NO work. Looks like they'd rather be unemployed than make reasonable concessions.

I do agree that faced with the two options the UAW made a pretty bad call. On the other hand you can not point the finger at the UAW for the current situation that the Big 3 are in. Sure the UAW was instrumental at preventing the current bailout from happening, on the other hand the UAW is not to blame for the position the companies are in. Dont point your finger at the guy bolting a bumper onto a ford F-150 and tell him its his fault that Ford is failing.The companies them selves have have miss managed for years. Unless they want to make some radical changes and produce some worthy product they will continue to go down the drain regardless of how many grants/loans/bailouts they get.

Chrysler came back from the dead back in the 80's since they made some changes and produced new and exciting product. They were able to become very profitable within a few years. The workers and UAW have nothing to do with the success of the company.
 
I do agree that faced with the two options the UAW made a pretty bad call. On the other hand you can not point the finger at the UAW for the current situation that the Big 3 are in. Sure the UAW was instrumental at preventing the current bailout from happening, on the other hand the UAW is not to blame for the position the companies are in. Dont point your finger at the guy bolting a bumper onto a ford F-150 and tell him its his fault that Ford is failing.The companies them selves have have miss managed for years. Unless they want to make some radical changes and produce some worthy product they will continue to go down the drain regardless of how many grants/loans/bailouts they get.

Chrysler came back from the dead back in the 80's since they made some changes and produced new and exciting product. They were able to become very profitable within a few years. The workers and UAW have nothing to do with the success of the company.

Actually, Chrysler and the UAW workers there were a special case with a special relationship. Mercedes threw that away when they took over.

And yes, I can certainly point my finger at the guy bolting bumpers on the F-150 and tell him that it is partially his fault if he's not doing his job right! Remember, you can't fire a UAW member for poor performance, you can only send him to "counseling" and "retraining" and if you're really lucky you might be able to transfer him to another shift. In the meantime, he's busily leaving bolts out, urinating in vehicles, scrawling obscene messages on the bulkheads before covering them with carpets, or tying knots in wiring harnesses because he thinks it's fun.

Think I'm joking? All of these have been reported in major news articles in the past decade, or have been experienced by members here. Merp, for example, had a then-new 2001 Corvette C5 that the UAW drone left some of the bolts off the steering column and couldn't be bothered to properly torque the rest. The same car was also missing oil rings from the engine's pistons and the driver's door panel wasn't properly assembled and oozed sealant.

This is the UAW's "flagship product" and they can't be bothered to put it together properly!

Looks like its finally about to happen :dance:

Can't happen soon enough or to a nicer bunch of people.

Yep the UAW is just as suicidal as the british unions were.

Worse; at least the Brits didn't bother claiming they made world class vehicles after about 73.
 
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Oh God. Not this again. Spectre will go into more detail, but the UAW is partly to blame. They make cars more expensive to make for the Big 3, they do a lousy job of bolting them together, and they have prevented the said Big 3 from building modern plants in the US and Canada.

I do agree that faced with the two options the UAW made a pretty bad call. On the other hand you can not point the finger at the UAW for the current situation that the Big 3 are in. Sure the UAW was instrumental at preventing the current bailout from happening, on the other hand the UAW is not to blame for the position the companies are in. Dont point your finger at the guy bolting a bumper onto a ford F-150 and tell him its his fault that Ford is failing.The companies them selves have have miss managed for years. Unless they want to make some radical changes and produce some worthy product they will continue to go down the drain regardless of how many grants/loans/bailouts they get.

Chrysler came back from the dead back in the 80's since they made some changes and produced new and exciting product. They were able to become very profitable within a few years. The workers and UAW have nothing to do with the success of the company.
 
I do agree that faced with the two options the UAW made a pretty bad call. On the other hand you can not point the finger at the UAW for the current situation that the Big 3 are in. Sure the UAW was instrumental at preventing the current bailout from happening, on the other hand the UAW is not to blame for the position the companies are in. Dont point your finger at the guy bolting a bumper onto a ford F-150 and tell him its his fault that Ford is failing.The companies them selves have have miss managed for years. Unless they want to make some radical changes and produce some worthy product they will continue to go down the drain regardless of how many grants/loans/bailouts they get.

Chrysler came back from the dead back in the 80's since they made some changes and produced new and exciting product. They were able to become very profitable within a few years. The workers and UAW have nothing to do with the success of the company.



Did you even read the articles? Ford is has a good amount of untapped credit to keep them afloat on their own - at least for a while. Chrysler was kept afloat 25 years ago by the K-cars, but those days are long gone. Chrysler's cars are consistently crappy and are notorious for cut corners, poor build quality and generally being miserable experiences to drive. There are the Dodge truck fans and of course Jeep, but over all Chrysler has consistently sucked. Even the K-cars were terrible, the only thing that kept them selling was the fact they were so damn cheap.

Ford is battling with Toyota for initial quality, something I never thought I would see happen. In fact, I would gladly look at Ford if I had to replace my car today. It seems that Ford is making some good management choices and they might come out of this ok - at least better off than GM.
 
It would appear that the god-damn proverbial Sukhoi has crashed into the proverbial mountain.

I am up there with Nostradamus himself.
 
Did you even read the articles? Ford is has a good amount of untapped credit to keep them afloat on their own - at least for a while. Chrysler was kept afloat 25 years ago by the K-cars, but those days are long gone. Chrysler's cars are consistently crappy and are notorious for cut corners, poor build quality and generally being miserable experiences to drive. There are the Dodge truck fans and of course Jeep, but over all Chrysler has consistently sucked. Even the K-cars were terrible, the only thing that kept them selling was the fact they were so damn cheap.

Ford is battling with Toyota for initial quality, something I never thought I would see happen. In fact, I would gladly look at Ford if I had to replace my car today. It seems that Ford is making some good management choices and they might come out of this ok - at least better off than GM.

Ford at least has a fighting chance *and* is very aware of their product mistakes in the past. While none of the Big Three have as detailed a plan for recovery as Chrysler did in 1979, Ford's got the closest thing to it; they have a plan to jumpstart their product lineup by mass importation of their superb European cars, they're working on quality, they've gone through management with a chainsaw to make cuts, fired many of the incompetent at HQ, are dropping products that aren't selling (fairly fast, too!) and most importantly they're not betting the farm on some pie in the sky product that may or may not appear in the promised time frame and may or may not work (Volt).

Also, K-Cars weren't shit. They were exactly what they were advertised as - simple, basic, cheap reliable transportation. That's all they were promised to be and that's all they were. A frightening number of them are still with us.

Thing is... the K-Car was under development (as was the minivan) at the time that Chrysler went for their first bailout request; they were part of their plan. Today, thanks to Mercedes mismanagement, Chrysler is screwed - they have nothing significant under development and not enough time to fix that problem.

And GM is *still* asleep at the wheel.
 
Yea, I have been reading this stuff for years. It was the K-cars and the Minivan that saved Chrysler since they had a market to sell to. What do the manufactures have to sell today? The only viable products are being killed due to the shift in market demands. Yes the UAW makes bad calls, but in the end even if they were doing an awesome job making their cars the product would still be terrible. You can make a hummer as well as you want but it still wont sell.

I know ford is not in the same position as the other two, but they are still faced with the same struggle. Ditching a lot of their brands was a easy way to keep the pressure off them, but its still not changing the demographic. As you said they are making an effort, but its not enough in my option. I cant see ford staying afloat for many more years on its truck and SUV sales. If it is the case that they do make the wise choice to bring in the euro models then I am all for it. As I said in my first post, I would love to see ford bring over the Euro focus rather than wasting money on their own sub par one. The same goes for Saturn, keep bringing me the Voxals (edit: Vauxhall) they are great cars. (ion vs astra no comparison)
 
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Yea, I have been reading this stuff for years. It was the K-cars and the Minivan that saved Chrysler since they had a market to sell to. What do the manufactures have to sell today? The only viable products are being killed due to the shift in market demands. Yes the UAW makes bad calls, but in the end even if they were doing an awesome job making their cars the product would still be terrible. You can make a hummer as well as you want but it still wont sell.

I know ford is not in the same position as the other two, but they are still faced with the same struggle. Ditching a lot of their brands was a easy way to keep the pressure off them, but its still not changing the demographic. As you said they are making an effort, but its not enough in my option. I cant see ford staying afloat for many more years on its truck and SUV sales. If it is the case that they do make the wise choice to bring in the euro models then I am all for it. As I said in my first post, I would love to see ford bring over the Euro focus rather than wasting money on their own sub par one. The same goes for Saturn, keep bringing me the Voxals they are great cars. (ion vs astra no comparison)

1. They're spelled "Vauxhalls" and they're really just rebadged Opels anyway.

2. Ford has already given up on having their trucks keep them alive. As others have said, they are bringing their Euro lineup to the US. The new Ford Fiesta will be the first of a stream of cars coming this way - it will soon be joined by the new Focus Mk III, the returning Mondeo (though we're not sure how that one will work out), and others. Ford is also diversifying - they're going to offer diesels and hybrids in much of their lineup shortly.
 
1. They're spelled "Vauxhalls" and they're really just rebadged Opels anyway.

2. Ford has already given up on having their trucks keep them alive. As others have said, they are bringing their Euro lineup to the US. The new Ford Fiesta will be the first of a stream of cars coming this way - it will soon be joined by the new Focus Mk III, the returning Mondeo (though we're not sure how that one will work out), and others. Ford is also diversifying - they're going to offer diesels and hybrids in much of their lineup shortly.

Vauxalls, bahh I am sorry I knew I was spelling it wrong. Living in Canada the only time I ever see or hear of them its on TG. I also realize that they are just the Opels rebadged for sale in England.

What ford is apparently doing is what I have been waiting for a long time. I bought my mazda 3 (2.3L) since I could not get the Euro focus! I am so happy they are setting things right.
 
Y'know, the automaker bailout is the Terry Schiavo case of 2008, except with the parties reversed, and moral stakes swapped for financial ones.
 
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