Prop 8 (Gay marriage ban in CA) may result in "Civil Unions" for all. I so called it

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Prop 8 (Gay marriage ban in CA) may result in "Civil Unions" for all. I so called it

http://cbs13.com/local/proposition.8.ruling.2.953010.html

The California Supreme Court could decide that there are two kinds of same-sex couples: those who can't get married, and those who already did.

A ruling that upholds both voters' November decision to ban gay marriage and the 18,000 same-sex marriages conducted earlier in California could come off as a safe compromise. But it also promises to keep alive an issue that has split the state as few others have.

Such a decision would give same-sex marriage advocates an avenue to pursue a federal appeal, and an argument for compelling the state to, as Associate Justice Ming Chin put it, "get out of the marriage business."

Justices on the high court appear hesitant to overturn Proposition 8, while also reluctant to invalidate same-sex marriages performed before it passed, legal observers agreed Friday.

During Thursday's oral arguments on a trio of lawsuits seeking to overturn the ban, Chin and Chief Justice Ronald George seemed to anticipate the difficulty in reconciling the state constitution's promise of equality with its commitment to giving voters wide discretion to pass laws.

Chin, who was not part of the court majority that ruled last year to legalize same-sex marriage, twice asked whether the court should direct the state "to employ non-marriage terminology" and instead make only civil unions or domestic partnerships available to all.

Gay-rights lawyers and Pepperdine University law school dean Kenneth Starr, who was representing Proposition 8's sponsors, agreed that making marriage the province of religious institutions was one way, however unanticipated, around the problem.

"There is a long tradition of requiring different parts of the California Constitution to be harmonized," said David Cruz, a constitutional law professor at the University of Southern California who is not involved in the case. "It's not necessarily what the voters intended their only clear intent was to stop gay people from getting married."

Although the 14-word measure holds that "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California," the justices indicated their discomfort with dissolving the unions of gay and lesbian couples who married before the election.

Having some gay couples allowed to stay married while others are prohibited from saying "I do" would provide legally plausible, if politically debatable, grounds for an appeal under the equal protection clause of the U.S. Constitution, according to Cruz.

"If they say Proposition 8 is valid but it doesn't touch existing marriages, what that raises is the fact that there are now these two groups of couples who are treated differently under the law for no functional reason," he said.

California already affords same-sex couples who register as domestic partners all the rights and benefits of marriage. As a practical matter, that means wed and unwed same-sex couples should not have different experiences when it comes to issues such as hospital visitation rights, filing state income taxes or suing for child support.

In reality, though, service providers, employers and public agencies still have a hard time regarding domestic partners as the legal equivalent of married spouses, said Tobias Wolff, a University of Pennsylvania constitutional law professor. The confusion is especially great when such couples visit states without similar categories, Wolff said.

"It's very easy to imagine there will be a lack of understanding, that there will be skepticism, that people will be challenged and need to start producing time- and date-stamped copies of their marriage licenses. It's going to create a lot of serious burdens on the couples," he said.

While publicly reluctant to read too much into the court's reception, gay-rights leaders already are preparing for a return to the ballot box to have Proposition 8 repealed. The state's largest gay-rights groups have started raising money, airing television advertisements and recruiting volunteers with an eye toward qualifying a ballot measure in 2012, if not next year.

"They key here is changing social attitudes," said Rick Jacobs, co-founder of the Los Angeles-based Courage Campaign. "It would be nice if the Supreme Court comes out with a favorable decision, but we have to go do the work ourselves. That is the real lesson of this."

I seem to recall saying that Prop 8 would face legal challenges under the equal protection clause, and that one way to fix it would be to abolish "marriage" completely and just leave legal contracts.

Fuck me running, I can be prophetic at times.
 
All well and good, but here lies the problem:

In reality, though, service providers, employers and public agencies still have a hard time regarding domestic partners as the legal equivalent of married spouses, said Tobias Wolff, a University of Pennsylvania constitutional law professor. The confusion is especially great when such couples visit states without similar categories, Wolff said.

Imagine if you moved to a different state with your civil partner, but that state did not recognize it as such? Back to square one. A good intention does not always make for a good reality.
 
But if all couples from California have the same documentation there's nothing much other states can do under Article IV, Section I of the US Constitution (Full faith and credit clause).
 
All well and good, but here lies the problem:

Imagine if you moved to a different state with your civil partner, but that state did not recognize it as such? Back to square one. A good intention does not always make for a good reality.

But if all couples from California have the same documentation there's nothing much other states can do under Article IV, Section I of the US Constitution (Full faith and credit clause).

Or Savior President Obama could get rid of the DOMA like he promised...
 
Is that the same Kenneth Starr that was in charge of the Clinton/Lewinsky witch-hunt?
 
But if all couples from California have the same documentation there's nothing much other states can do under Article IV, Section I of the US Constitution (Full faith and credit clause).

Which of course does not stop California from ignoring Art IV, Sec 1 when they feel like it.

Tell you what, we'll recognize California's "civil unions" when they recognize the ten billion other things they're supposed to but don't.
 
The big ones are marriage, death, and marriage certificates - along with state ID, and those are recognized by California. What they don't have reciprocity with are things like Concealed Carry Permits, and many states refuse to recognize California's permits in return.
 
This is ridiculous- it has been going on for ages now, basically just because a few religious weirdos are obsessed with keeping :)eek:) gays out of office or marriage. Get over it already, seperation of church and state= no reason not to recognise gay marriage.

Issue closed.

Can we think of something that really needs solving?
 
So let me get this straight: Everyone in California will only be able to get "civil unions", regardless of whether they're homo/heterosexual couples?

freeferrarisdonotexist said:
Get over it already, seperation of church and state= no reason not to recognise gay marriage.

Issue closed.

Can we think of something that really needs solving?
I wish it could be that simple.
 
The big ones are marriage, death, and marriage certificates - along with state ID, and those are recognized by California. What they don't have reciprocity with are things like Concealed Carry Permits, and many states refuse to recognize California's permits in return.

It's not just CCW/CCP that I was thinking of. CA doesn't always recognize other states' drivers' licenses, especially when the motorcycle classifications are different.

This is ridiculous- it has been going on for ages now, basically just because a few religious weirdos are obsessed with keeping :)eek:) gays out of office or marriage. Get over it already, seperation of church and state= no reason not to recognise gay marriage.

Issue closed.

Can we think of something that really needs solving?

Actually, separation of church and state is *exactly* why the state should be prohibited from recognizing or encouraging/penalizing *any* kind of marriage at all! Marriage is a *religious* ceremony!

As far as I am concerned, the state should be barred from regulating, recognizing, or really even acknowledging marriage. You want to get married? Great, go find a religion that will marry you. It's none of the state's business!

Trivia: FYI, if you are a married couple in the US and you file taxes as a married couple, you traditionally have had to pay MORE tax than if you file separately. Stupid, no?
 
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It's not just CCW/CCP that I was thinking of. CA doesn't always recognize other states' drivers' licenses, especially when the motorcycle classifications are different.



Actually, separation of church and state is *exactly* why the state should be prohibited from recognizing or encouraging/penalizing *any* kind of marriage at all! Marriage is a *religious* ceremony!

As far as I am concerned, the state should be barred from regulating, recognizing, or really even acknowledging marriage. You want to get married? Great, go find a religion that will marry you. It's none of the state's business!

Trivia: FYI, if you are a married couple in the US and you file taxes as a married couple, you traditionally have had to pay MORE tax than if you file separately. Stupid, no?

Exactly. :+1:

And I didn't know that. Bit stupid, why would someone volunteer to pay extra taxes by saying they are "officially" married?

:blink:
 
I vote in with Spectre here. I don't think the government should recognize a religious ceremony as a legally binding agreement. This keeps churches from having to marry people they don't want to be married, while in no way harming regular folks ability to get on with their lives.

You have to wait in line for a marriage certificate anyway in Texas.
 
As far as I am concerned, the state should be barred from regulating, recognizing, or really even acknowledging marriage. You want to get married? Great, go find a religion that will marry you. It's none of the state's business!
The way I see it, the government should only recognize if two people are "linked" or "bonded" to each other somehow. That way, you avoid the "marriage" connotation (and thus, deny religious wingnuts the right to complain) while still being able to grant rights to couples (or whoever).
 
It's not just CCW/CCP that I was thinking of. CA doesn't always recognize other states' drivers' licenses, especially when the motorcycle classifications are different.



Actually, separation of church and state is *exactly* why the state should be prohibited from recognizing or encouraging/penalizing *any* kind of marriage at all! Marriage is a *religious* ceremony!

As far as I am concerned, the state should be barred from regulating, recognizing, or really even acknowledging marriage. You want to get married? Great, go find a religion that will marry you. It's none of the state's business!

It was this very line of reasoning why my gay cousin voted against gay marriage. :?

Trivia: FYI, if you are a married couple in the US and you file taxes as a married couple, you traditionally have had to pay MORE tax than if you file separately. Stupid, no?

Not really, a married couple is theoretically going to have a few more bucks in their pocket since they split living expenses, like taking advantage of cost savings at CostCo :p Plus they are likely to have more kids that go to public school. Tie up the courts more with their god damned 50%+ chance of getting a divorce among other things I can't be arsed to come up with.
 
Well, the way I see that is that if Prop 8 (gay marriage) were followed up with, say, Prop 9 (straight marriage)... it would be justified. There's not going to be a vote on "straight marriage" for... well, probably ever. It's going to be a "gay marriage" or an "all marriage" vote.

When the time comes for the "ban all marriage" vote, that's when you tick the "yes" box. When you tick "yes" for "ban gay marriage", all that's doing is preventing certain people who want to get married from getting married. It's not "furthering the anti-all-marriage" cause by denying some people rights in the mean time. It's not like there are milestones that need to be hit on the agenda... "okay, gay marriage down, straight marriage next!"
 
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