Bad news for new Camaro owners

None, but I was talking about prior Camaros, the previous four generations. I'm pretty sure you knew that. :p

Exactly. Which is why I take it you didn't read MadCat's post here:

Just because GM has made unreliable cars in the past, does not mean the new Camaro should be assumed to be unreliable as well. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?


So basically, if GM builds a reliable Camaro, people will still criticize them for building shit cars in the past. And if GM builds an unreliable Camaro (as many of you are willing to believe, based on the problems mentioned in this thread) people will just say it's because they built shit cars in the past. Personally, I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt before jumping to conclusions.

MattDizzle might be paranoid and crazy, but I'm starting to find myself agreeing with him. Look at that! Me, defending a faceless billion-dollar corporation!
 
MattDizzle might be paranoid and crazy, but I'm starting to find myself agreeing with him.


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Exactly. Which is why I take it you didn't read MadCat's post here:




So basically, if GM builds a reliable Camaro, people will still criticize them for building shit cars in the past. And if GM builds an unreliable Camaro (as many of you are willing to believe, based on the problems mentioned in this thread) people will just say it's because they built shit cars in the past. Personally, I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt before jumping to conclusions.

MattDizzle might be paranoid and crazy, but I'm starting to find myself agreeing with him. Look at that! Me, defending a faceless billion-dollar corporation!

How about this line of thought: GM have largely proven themselves to be shit for the last 50 years, and therefore have lost my trust. If they want it back again, they are going to have to prove it. I will not give the benefit of the doubt to a company that has betrayed its customers for years. Once they have proven that they don't do this anymore (read: I see reliability, etc) they have a chance.
 
How about this line of thought: GM have largely proven themselves to be shit for the last 50 years, and therefore have lost my trust. If they want it back again, they are going to have to prove it. I will not give the benefit of the doubt to a company that has betrayed its customers for years. Once they have proven that they don't do this anymore (read: I see reliability, etc) they have a chance.

Bingo. I see a few signs (Cadillac, Corvette) that they may be getting the idea.... and then they come out with shit (and I do mean shit) like the crippled Malibu (with the design and quality problems), the Pontiac G3, the new Equinox (just as bad and unsellable as the old Equinox) that tells me no, they *don't* have the idea.

GM spent the last 30 years pissing my family's trust away. They pissed my trust away when they couldn't be bothered to sell me a GTO despite the fact that I was LITERALLY waving a suitcase full of cash at them - and then started getting cheap and shitty on their now-overpriced replacement parts (older Jags use GM parts). They pissed away anything they might have regained when they started sucking down my tax dollars like a black hole eats matter.

For all the shit they've done, all the hype they've spewed and all of MY FUCKING MONEY THEY JUST TOOK, they better fucking build a goddamn perfect fucking Camaro as they fucking promised - and they haven't. All I'm seeing here is more of the same GM idiocy, more of the same GM screwups, more of the shit quality and more of the "we can't be bothered" mindset that seems to infect all of GM's non-premium car lines.
 
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Bingo. I see a few signs (Cadillac, Corvette) that they may be getting the idea.... and then they come out with shit (and I do mean shit) like the crippled Malibu (with the design and quality problems), the Pontiac G3, the new Equinox (just as bad and unsellable as the old Equinox) that tells me no, they *don't* have the idea.

Well rather than broadly throwing all GM cars into the pot, which would surely disrupt my argument unfairly, why don't we focus on the Camaro as an individual case? Lets look at it from the perspective of, what else has GM done that's similar to the Camaro that works? Is not the G8 on the same platform (correct me if I'm wrong)? Is that not a good car? What about the GTO? No one ever seems to cite that as crap. There's two near me, both owners seem quite pleased with them considering how many GTO-sized burnout patches litter the streets. That's two cars in the bucket with this platform that are good, so surely the Camaro must be given a reasonable chance.


For all the shit they've done and all the hype they've spewed, they better fucking build a goddamn perfect fucking Camaro as they promised - and they haven't.

Nothing is perfect. Even the best cars in the world have niggly little faults, not unlike the Camaro has been having. If you've fallen prey to the hype machine, then I understand, but that's probably the worst place to come from when attacking a new product.
 
Well rather than broadly throwing all GM cars into the pot, which would surely disrupt my argument unfairly, why don't we focus on the Camaro as an individual case? Lets look at it from the perspective of, what else has GM done that's similar to the Camaro that works? Is not the G8 on the same platform (correct me if I'm wrong)? Is that not a good car? What about the GTO? No one ever seems to cite that as crap. There's two near me, both owners seem quite pleased with them considering how many GTO-sized burnout patches litter the streets. That's two cars in the bucket with this platform that are good, so surely the Camaro must be given a reasonable chance.

The fact that there were already cars on this platform that *don't* have these problems tells me that GM screwed this one up.

Given all the development time and the fact that the G8 GXP rides on the same platform and has Brembo brakes, how the HELL do you screw up the engineering so that its platformmate needs wheel weights stuck to it? Given all the miles we've seen Camaro mules accumulating, how did they miss the wiring harness issue?



Nothing is perfect. Even the best cars in the world have niggly little faults, not unlike the Camaro has been having. If you've fallen prey to the hype machine, then I understand, but that's probably the worst place to come from when attacking a new product.

What, four years of hype plus $30 billion of my fucking tax dollars to come up with something that shows clear signs of completely avoidable engineering screwups should be excused?

The last time GM did this sort of thing, we got the Saturn SC1. Yeah, not great.

You're supposed to underpromise and overdeliver, not the other way around. If I tried running my business the way GM handled the Camaro, I'd be bankrupt... oh, wait.... GM is about to be bankrupt, never mind.

Edit: Perhaps I'm a little more incensed by this than others, because I'm familiar with a similar disaster that happened to my favorite marque, Jaguar. The XJ40 (88-94 XJ) was in development for at least fourteen years and it turned out to be an utter disaster of a car. Jaguar seriously hyped the car, said that development got all the bugs out, and that it would be the best Jaguar ever. The first signs that something was wrong were minor - some exterior parts cracked, the brakes had issues (hmmm) and the much vaunted rear suspension had some "minor problems". Eventually the trickle of problems because an avalanche; the resulting sales drop caused Jaguar to sell itself out to Ford.

Let's see... extended development time, massive hype, lots of promises, "minor" problems on a car that was billed as perfect.... anyone seeing a pattern here?
 
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The fact that there were already cars on this platform that *don't* have these problems tells me that GM screwed this one up.

Given all the development time and the fact that the G8 GXP rides on the same platform and has Brembo brakes, how the HELL do you screw up the engineering so that its platformmate needs wheel weights stuck to it? Given all the miles we've seen Camaro mules accumulating, how did they miss the wiring harness issue?

The wiring harness issue was one car. We don't know if the recall was simply a knee-jerk reaction to stuff like what we're doing here, or if there was a general widespread problem. I'm willing to bet the former since there were no mass failings of Camaros at 40 miles, just the one.


What, four years of hype plus $30 billion of my fucking tax dollars to come up with something that shows clear signs of completely avoidable engineering screwups should be excused?

The significance of the engineering screwups should be considered. In this case, they have shown themselves to be minor, whether or not they are in reality. Yes, a faulty wire is pretty big for the singular car, but there is not a lot of evidence suggesting that all Camaros suffer the same problem. I've been trying to tell you this for 3 pages now.


Edit: Perhaps I'm a little more incensed by this than others, because I'm familiar with a similar disaster that happened to my favorite marque, Jaguar. The XJ40 (88-94 XJ) was in development for at least fourteen years and it turned out to be an utter disaster of a car. Jaguar seriously hyped the car, said that development got all the bugs out, and that it would be the best Jaguar ever. The first signs that something was wrong were minor - some exterior parts cracked, the brakes had issues (hmmm) and the much vaunted rear suspension had some "minor problems". Eventually the trickle of problems because an avalanche; the resulting sales drop caused Jaguar to sell itself out to Ford.

Let's see... extended development time, massive hype, lots of promises, "minor" problems on a car that was billed as perfect.... anyone seeing a pattern here?

The only actual problem, again I say, is the wire. That one wire, that temporarily killed one car out of thousands. The brakes have not shown to be an issue, and the fascia cracks were on a pre-pre-production model.

I suggest you try to stop riding the hype train in the future.
 
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The last time GM did this sort of thing, we got the Saturn SC1. Yeah, not great.
What was wrong with the Saturn SC? Judging by how many of them I still see driving around, I think it's a great car.
 
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The wiring harness issue was one car. We don't know if the recall was simply a knee-jerk reaction to stuff like what we're doing here, or if there was a general widespread problem. I'm willing to bet the former since there were no mass failings of Camaros at 40 miles, just the one.




The significance of the engineering screwups should be considered. In this case, they have shown themselves to be minor, whether or not they are in reality. Yes, a faulty wire is pretty big for the singular car, but there is not a lot of evidence suggesting that all Camaros suffer the same problem. I've been trying to tell you this for 3 pages now.

Actually, just looking at the routing of the wire should tell you that it's going to be problematic. The one that died at 40 miles was just the canary in the coal mine for that problem. I will give GM credit for getting out in front of the issue, but they deserve the demerit for not figuring it it out ahead of time. FYI, G8s don't have their unshielded cables routed that way either.

What was wrong with the Saturn SC? Judging by how many of them I still see driving around, I think it's a great car.

The original SC and the SC2 is what you see running around, IMO. The SC1 is the cheap version of the SC/SC2 without the popups, with the SL nose and with an 85hp version of the engine that was most famous for exploding at random intervals.


The only actual problem, again I say, is the wire. That one wire, that temporarily killed one car out of thousands. The brakes have not shown to be an issue, and the fascia cracks were on a pre-pre-production model.

I suggest you try to stop riding the hype train in the future.

The brakes have not proven to be a problem... yet. Operative word, "yet." I'm waiting to see what one does at the first open track day at Motorsport Ranch a little later this year.

And GM themselves say that the nose cracks were on a piece intended for early production cars and that they caught it before it made it onto customer cars. I simply don't trust that explanation. We'll see if the ones out in the wild start having problems shortly.
 
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The original SC and the SC2 is what you see running around, IMO. The SC1 the cheap version of the SC/SC2 without the popups, with the SL nose and with an 85hp version of the engine that was most famous for exploding at random intervals.
Gotcha. That engine was only the SOHC one, though, and they replaced it a couple years after... which explains why I still see the car you're talking about puttering around. :p
 
Gotcha. That engine was only the SOHC one, though, and they replaced it a couple years after... which explains why I still see the car you're talking about puttering around. :p

The DOHC engine wasn't bad, but the cars weren't great. The problem with the Saturns was that GM took forever to develop them and used as their benchmarks the import compacts of circa 1985. As the Saturns were designed they would have been an overwhelming match for those cars.

Unfortunately, the contemporary import crowd of 1991 was massively advanced over their 1985 progenitors and the Saturns lagged behind from day one.

Edit: Now, that said, I should also point something out. This is the lobby of one of my clients here in North Texas, as of March.

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So it isn't like I'm not actually looking at GM products at close range for extended periods of time. And it's not like I'm not talking to the guys back in Service, either.

I call it like I see it, people. The Corvette is now an awesome car since you can get a real interior in it these days. The Caddies are great. The T900 trucks are a vast improvement. Most of the rest you could send out to die in a fire and there would be no loss to the world. And I'm afraid that the Camaro is just not impressing me in a positive fashion.
 
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The DOHC engine wasn't bad, but the cars weren't great. The problem with the Saturns was that GM took forever to develop them and used as their benchmarks the import compacts of circa 1985. As the Saturns were designed they would have been an overwhelming match for those cars.

Unfortunately, the contemporary import crowd of 1991 was massively advanced over their 1985 progenitors and the Saturns lagged behind from day one.
I do see what you're saying. I much prefer my 1991 240SX over a 1991 SC2. That being said, though, I still maintain that I'd still own a (decently maintained) '91 SC2. I have a couple of friends who still have that era of Saturn, and it seems pretty alright.

GM has always been 5-10 years late to any party, there's no doubt about that... but that doesn't mean the first-gen Saturns aren't good cars anyway.
 
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I do see what you're saying. I much prefer my 1991 240SX over a 1991 SC2. That being said, though, I still maintain that I'd still own a (decently maintained) '91 SC2. I have a couple of friends who still have that era of Saturn, and it seems pretty alright.

GM has always been 5-10 years late to any party, there's no doubt about that... but that doesn't mean the first-gen Saturns aren't good cars anyway.

I added to my above post, so take a look.

The first gen Saturns, with the exception of the SC1 and SL1 weren't bad cars. They also weren't great cars. They just sort of... were. I wouldn't want one in any case, but you could do worse - and they were probably the best-assembled GM cars of their time period.
 
Is not the G8 on the same platform (correct me if I'm wrong)? Is that not a good car? What about the GTO? No one ever seems to cite that as crap. There's two near me, both owners seem quite pleased with them considering how many GTO-sized burnout patches litter the streets. That's two cars in the bucket with this platform that are good, so surely the Camaro must be given a reasonable chance.

The GTO, in it's most basic 4-door form started production in 1997, and it was built in a completely different factory with different part suppliers. Different people, different part quality, different build quality.
 
Did you ever WANT a Camaro, Spectre? I think the image issues would throw you off, no matter the quality. ;)
 
Image issues? For a guy that has a Pathfinder, a Honda motorcycle and tried to buy a GTO??????
 
I don't understand why the hype for this car was expected to translate into "perfect", and it seems a lot longer than it actually was due to its visual similarity to the concept car of (i think ) 3 years ago. Its a beloved nameplate in the US and some hype is to be expected.

Its putting down superior performance numbers to its rivals in a straight line and on a proper race track, its got fine braking, suspension and power plant systems, and it looks like a proper American over the top sports car for a price most people can afford! Remember this "OMG 40 GRAND PLUSS!" is the top of a line model with a few features bolted on, a nice SS example could be had in the low 30's. A 300hp Caddy CTS v6 camaro (with more power than my top of the line 90's v8 model) costs less than a honda fucking civic!!!

I think your bias, while well founded and a matter of personal opinion is leading you to angrily state opinion and guesses (educated and otherwise) as solid fact. General motors could never win with you, if it was a solid rear end it would be old tech, fully independent is too expensive for "a redneck mobile". If something breaks you jump on it, if they fix it right away with a recall you go on about "lol it still broke", and if it had never broken to begin with you would rail on about how inevitable it is something was going to break. Its getting ridiculous.
 
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I don't understand why the hype for this car was expected to translate into "perfect", and it seems a lot longer than it actually was due to its visual similarity to the concept car of (i think ) 3 years ago. Its a beloved nameplate in the US and some hype is to be expected.

Its putting down superior performance numbers to its rivals in a straight line and on a proper race track, its got fine braking, suspension and power plant systems, and it looks like a proper American over the top sports car for a price most people can afford! Remember this "OMG 40 GRAND PLUSS!" is the top of a line model with a few features bolted on, a nice SS example could be had in the low 30's. A 300hp Caddy CTS v6 camaro (with more power than my top of the line 90's v8 model) costs less than a honda fucking civic!!!

I think your bias, while well founded and a matter of personal opinion is leading you to angrily state opinion and guesses (educated and otherwise) as solid fact. General motors could never win with you, if it was a solid rear end it would be old tech, fully independent is too expensive for "a redneck mobile". If something breaks you jump on it, if they fix it right away with a recall you go on about "lol it still broke", and if it had never broken to begin with you would rail on about how inevitable it is something was going to break. Its getting ridiculous.

Yeah, I get that impression too. If I can't watch a Formula 1 race without seeing teams suffering mechanical difficulties, what chance does a mass produced budget minded sports coupe have?
 
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