Ferrari Leave Formula 1

ViperVX said:
Just seems you are panicking way too much, teams aren't broke, even though manufacturers are taking losses (with the exception of Ferrari), certain industries are posting record profits, TV Ratings for everything are on the rise, there is no need to rush anything.
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Have you already forgotten about Honda?
 
Peter3hg said:
Have you already forgotten about Honda?
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Have you? Brawn's funds are from Honda, they are not rushing to sign a main sponsor, so clearly they have enough cash. IMO the thinking behind Honda "leaving" was to let the team get it's own sponsorship, with Honda patching up all the "holes" in team's budget, leaving them with a high enough stake to possibly return later.
 
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ViperVX said:
Have you? Brawn's funds are from Honda, they are not rushing to sign a main sponsor, so clearly they have enough cash. IMO the thinking behind Honda "leaving" was to let the team get it's own sponsorship, with Honda patching up all the "holes" in team's budget, leaving them with a high enough stake to possibly return later.
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That makes no sense at all. Why could Honda not get sponsorship as Honda? BMW, Ferrari, Renault and Toyota all have sponsorship so why could Honda not get it?
Honda pay rolled Brawn this year because it was cheaper than having to pay all the redundancies.
Don't you think Honda would have had their name slapped straight back on the car, if they had any say, at the first sign of success?
If you haven't noticed Brawn is picking up sponsors and they effectively have a main sponsor in the form of Virgin, even if it is only done on a race by race basis at the moment.
 
Peter3hg said:
That makes no sense at all. Why could Honda not get sponsorship as Honda? BMW, Ferrari, Renault and Toyota all have sponsorship so why could Honda not get it?
Honda pay rolled Brawn this year because it was cheaper than having to pay all the redundancies.
Don't you think Honda would have had their name slapped straight back on the car, if they had any say, at the first sign of success?
If you haven't noticed Brawn is picking up sponsors and they effectively have a main sponsor in the form of Virgin, even if it is only done on a race by race basis at the moment.
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First of all Virgin is not the main sponsor, they are still in the talks with them (and others), as Ross Brawn is pushing the "decision" date further and further away. I do not know the exact motivation behind Honda's decision to fund Brawn GP, i assume it's so they keep the team (which is a 1 billion investment) afloat and have a possibility to return, but that's irrelevant, the fact is, the team is functioning and doesn't seem to have any financial problems. Also Ross Brawn is one of the main activists behind FOTA, and we've never heard of him accepting the idea of a budget cap, the fact that FOTA is meeting again this Tuesday to develop an alternative to Mosley's idea, pretty much says that the majority are not satisfied with the cap and want to cut costs via reducing aero testing and cheaper engines and stuff.
 
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I personally think the horror (for want of a better word) of a two tier system comes from the major teams -- They are terrorfied of another Colin Chapman emerging from the "low budget" series to seriously challenge the big boys (or even become more interesting)...hell even with the rule imitations...

Vambeer said:
! Especially when the championship is F1 (the pinnacle of technology, innovation and creativity)
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Innovation and creativity are always crushed when somebody gets the upper hand....its a wonder mid engined cars ever got allowed :rolleyes:
 
ViperVX said:
Also Ross Brawn is one of the main activists behind FOTA, and we've never heard of him accepting the idea of a budget cap, the fact that FOTA is meeting again this Tuesday to develop an alternative to Mosley's idea, pretty much says that the majority are not satisfied with the cap and want to cut costs via reducing aero testing and cheaper engines and stuff.
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Well Button welcomes it and it would safe to think that what he says was pre-approved by the team.

LEADER BUTTON WELCOMES BUDGET CAP

Formula One championship leader Jenson Button has backed the introduction of a ?40m budget cap from 2010.The cap is part of a raft of proposals to shake up F1 announced by governing body the International Automobile Federation (FIA) on Thursday. "For the manufacturers and the bigger teams I'm sure they don't want that, but for teams like Brawn we need that for the future," Button told BBC Sport. "It's the way F1 has to go in the times that we are experiencing," he added. F1 is dominated by manufacturers who are suffering in the global downturn with the result of slumping car sales, while Button's former team Japan's Honda pulled out of the sport in 2008. We remain encouraged by the new rules Prodrive chairman David Richards "For the teams that are not manufacturers this is what we need," said Button speaking at the Sport Industry Awards for 2009. "For us and Williams and a few other teams we'll be reasonably happy with the decision - it's going in the direction that we need it to." Teams are free to chose whether to be governed by the cap but those that opt out face certain restrictions. Some teams are spending ?160m each year and the proposed introduction of the budget cap has raised fears that F1 will become a two-tier sport. McLaren's Martin Whitmarsh wants a solution which "may or may not include a budget cap, but which ideally would not encompass a two-tier regulatory framework". F1 MOLE Much of the discussion in F1 has been about how high the cap should be set F1 Mole Those who comply with the budget cap will gain greater technical freedom and unlimited out-of-season testing. The FIA is to allow three new teams to enter from next year and those that join and work within the cap will get money from the commercial rights holder, a proposal that was welcomed by Aston Martin and Prodrive chairman David Richards. "We remain encouraged by the new rules which have the potential for a team to be commercially viable and competitive on a far more realistic budget," said Richards, who has expressed an interest in entering F1 in 2010.
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http://www.motorsport.co.uk/british...der_button_welcomes_budget_cap_rss98367.shtml
 
Peter3hg said:
Well Button welcomes it and it would safe to think that what he says was pre-approved by the team.
http://www.motorsport.co.uk/british...der_button_welcomes_budget_cap_rss98367.shtml
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We don't know for sure whether the Team supports it, but a lot of drivers oppose the 2-tier system, and most important of all - a lot of teams oppose the cap, until now we only saw one statament in support - by Williams, they will probably be joined by Williams and India. Also there's somewhat of the hole in the new rules, let's say all teams agree to the cap, Manufacturers will invest the "extra" in unfrozen engine RnD, small teams will never ever catch up.

Simple math here, Ferrari has a $300m budget, next year - $60m + Engines + Kimi's 35m + Massa's 10m + hospitality = over 175 million on engine Development, and they can use as many of them as they want. Renault, Toyota, BMW and McLaren can go one step further and use parent companies for RnD, which is probably why FOTA is pushing for spending control via techno-restrictions, that can be easily controlled.
 
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ViperVX said:
We don't know for sure whether the Team supports it, but a lot of drivers oppose the 2-tier system, and most important of all - a lot of teams oppose the cap, until now we only saw one statament in support - by Williams, they will probably be joined by Williams and India, but i really doubt India, but that's about it...
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Is this good enough for you?

?We, as a team ? both in Honda days and now ? support the idea of a constraint on resources of some sort, be it financial, be it people, be it some constraint where everything is enclosed and within that enclosure there is more freedom because most of the technical changes we're doing are to save cost. If we can save cost by saying 'that's all you're allowed to spend' and have more freedom, for me that's a more exciting Formula 1 [and] we've always supported that concept.?
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http://www.crash.net/formula+one/ne...ainst_turning_f1_into_swiss_watch-making.html
 
Peter3hg said:
Is this good enough for you?

http://www.crash.net/formula+one/ne...ainst_turning_f1_into_swiss_watch-making.html
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Yes, that's good enough, so we have two teams who openly support the cap, India, who silently supports it, and 7 others, 3 of which oppose it, 4 are in the middle and once again - 10 teams and a number of drivers who oppose two-tier system which is still in place. Now i am reading Bernie say: "Teams should make the rules, not the Federation" and the court ruling that prohibits FIA make financial decisions, so who is going to win the Ferrari vs. FIA case?
 
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Peter3hg, I'll tell you why the teams aren't coming up with an alternative solution; it's not just about 2010 anymore. It is about them wanting to get rid of Mosley and gain more power in F1.


Here's a few interesting quotes:


Eccelstone about the two-tier system:

He added that he had his own misgivings about the two-tier proposal.

"I always thought that was a bit stupid," Ecclestone was quoted as saying by the Daily Mail. "It was important to get rid of it."
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Stefano Domenicali:

Jonathan Noble
However, Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali was encouraged that all teams remained united in their efforts to find a way forward - with further talks now set for the Monaco Grand Prix weekend.

"I think that the meeting shows that on one side there is a very united group of teams that were discussing with the president of the FIA about the future, and above all this regulation. That is what I can say," he said.

Ferrari has joined Toyota, Red Bull and Renault in threatening not to enter the 2010 championship if the rules are not changed.

When asked if there was the possibility of finding a compromise deal: "I think that, as we said, it is a work in progress. We are working hard to find a solution and I think today with the teams we showed our unity, with a different perspective but it was important to reiterate our concept"

Domenicali also made it clear that the matter was more than simply agreeing on cost cuts.

"I think that is not only the case. We need to discuss about other things regarding the governance and the way the rule is done. It's not only this point on the table of the discussion."
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Briatore:

"The teams are F1 and the international federation should simply be the referee, the rules should be written by us, they can't be imposed by Max without him speaking to anyone," he explained. "That's an unacceptable way to work.

"The FIA throws at us a new thing every week: we've gone from medals to diffusers with embarrassing thoughtlessness. We can't go on like this. We must protect the work of our employees."

He added: "It must be clear that we, Ferrari, and the others have no intention of breaking with FIA. We want to be there, to participate, and to preserve the future. We are setting logical conditions to Mosley."

Briatore also said that he believed the desire to attract new teams to the sport was misplaced, because manufacturers are ready to keep a full grid.

"We don't accept F1 to be distorted by a set of rules that has no reason to exist," he said. "The arrival of new teams that lack the characteristics to be admitted to a world championship is not acceptable either.

"Maybe he's [Mosley] had the support of some small teams and he got excited. However, what will happen with the championship he had the World Council voting for, is that the teams with the capped budget will be ahead of the ones that didn't accept that limit, thanks to more technical and design freedom.

"That can't be. That way you'd tarnish not just the image but also the value of who invests money in F1.
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This shows very clearly that this is not just about what 2010 has to look like anymore. It is a about how the sport is governed and how the team feel they are getting treated. Imagine being of one the big teams, having posted huge amounts of money in the sport, and then just get brushed of like this. Mosley is basically "tough for you, you'll be shite in 2010, deal with it". He is handing all the advantages to the small teams. And I'm sorry, despite your apparent love for garagists, Ferrari and Renault are significantly more important to the sport than Lola and Prodrive would ever be. You can't just fuck them over like this.

These teams ARE the sport. If you mistreat them, and maybe even lose them, then you lose the sport. You lose a big amount of viewers and a big amount of revenue.

The two-tier system is useless, and the approach Mosley and FIA have taken in this matter is useless. The sport will easily survive a gradual cap. As far as i know none of the current teams have said that "If this doesn't come through then we won't be able to stay in the sport". You do have some other possible teams saying that if it does come through, they might consider joining. But why would that have to be now, why not later?
The financial crisis is a temporary thing, it is not going to last forever. And if the current teams believe it is feasible to stay in the sport, then there is no need for intervention in this radical a manner.
 
I agree with most of what he says.

Mosley: Teams set to miss May deadline

FIA president Max Mosley now expects only around half the current grid to lodge entries to next year's Formula 1 world championship by this month's deadline, following the failure to reach agreement about plans for a voluntary budget cap in meetings last week.

Mosley and F1's commercial boss Bernie Ecclestone met with team representatives for lengthy discussions last week amid threats from a number of outfits about withdrawing from the sport at the end of this year.

And, following the failure of the teams to get any compromises off the FIA about its plans for a ?40 million budget cap limit, Mosley now thinks it likely that some teams will opt against lodging their entries by the May 29 deadline.

Those teams that do not enter in time will face a late entry financial penalty if they want to get back in later, but also risk the possibility of not getting back in at all if the grid is filled with new outfits.

"I think that we will probably get anywhere between three and six teams by the deadline, depending," said Mosley, when asked by AUTOSPORT about what he thought would happen.

"After that they become a late entry and if there is a space they can take it, and if there isn't space they cannot."

Although there have been fears that F1 is facing a crisis because of the threats by teams to quit, Mosley remains totally calm about the situation. He believes that even if teams skip the May 29 deadline, then circumstances will force them to decide pretty quickly after that what they plan to do.

When asked about concerns of the situation remaining unresolved until the winter, Mosley said: "I'm not sure it will drag on that long, because if you put yourself in their position - they have to make up their minds what they want to do. If they want to continue racing in F1, then they can come and talk. And if they want to go and do something else, then they have got to start making a car.

"If teams don't enter the F1 world championship, they are going to have to decide pretty quickly what they do - start their own series, race in some other series or pack it in. And if they pack it in, they have got an even bigger problem than if they operate under a cost cap, as far as the personnel are concerned. It is not completely obvious what they would do.

"There is a good chance that when people sit and think about it, common sense will prevail because what is wrong with everybody being limited by the same amount of money, and the performance being limited by the cleverness of the engineers? It is very appealing to a lot of people that ? and it is fair.

"And you could argue that if one team has got ten times as much money as another, then it is just the same as having a bigger engine. It is actually not very fair."

Mosley has also made it clear that if the rebel teams opt to set up a breakaway series, then the FIA would be happy to sanction it.

"Absolutely. We would have to do that, and we would do that. And if they did a breakaway, they could write their own rules and we would check them over for safety. And that would be it.

"Then, they would go off and negotiate with promoters and television companies, who would no doubt charge them a great deal of money as they would be there for marketing purposes.

"And rumour has it, when they went to negotiate with the promoters they would find Bernie on the other side of the table! I don't know if there is anything in that, but it is just a suggestion..."

FOTA members held a meeting after their get together with the FIA on Friday but failed to reach agreement on a way forward ? with further talks now planned for this weekend's Monaco Grand Prix.

Ferrari's court action in France, as it seeks an injunction against the FIA's introduction of 2010 regulations, is due to be heard on Tuesday.
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75420
 
All he basically says is "do as I tell you to, or we will make your lives miserable".

Is it unfair because someone has more money than someone else? :b Well yeah, but where would Formula1 be today without it? Everybody and their mother can't joing F1 and expect to be competitive.

They could have Bernie give the teams a bigger piece the cake to begin with. But that's hardly gonna happen.

Obviously the prices have to go down, but then we're back to the methods FIA takes in use to ensure this. I feel like we're running around in circles here.. :b
 
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75439

Court to rule on Ferrari case tomorrow

By Pablo Elizalde Tuesday, May 19th 2009, 16:43 GMT

French legal authorities will announce on Wednesday the verdict of the case in which Ferrari is seeking an injunction to prevent the FIA from introducing a budget cap in Formula 1 in 2010.

Representatives from both the Italian squad and the governing body appeared in a Paris court on Tuesday for an hour-long hearing, as the Maranello-based team pushed ahead with its bid to try and force the FIA to backtrack on its decision to introduce the voluntary ?40 million cap from next season.

A French court representative said on Tuesday afternoon that its decision will be announced tomorrow at 2pm local time.

The FIA has already stated its intention to appeal the verdict if Ferrari wins the case, meaning the issue could prolong for some time.
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So, if Ferrari wins this, FIA has 48 hours for appeal, meaning they sould do it by Friday, another hearing will probably be scheduled one tue/wed, leaving a day or two for the verdict, - very nice timing by Ferrari here.
 
How long can this thing realistically go for? There are only so many appeals you can do.
 
MP4/14 said:
How long can this thing realistically go for? There are only so many appeals you can do.
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You have a right to the first appeal, and then the court will decide whether to allow further appeals. Normally they will only allow it if the verdict was changed.
 
Peter3hg said:
You have a right to the first appeal, and then the court will decide whether to allow further appeals. Normally they will only allow it if the verdict was changed.
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That's correct, so FIA has until friday to appel, the whole thing will be over by the end of next week, therefore all teams, if Ferrari wins, will be able to apply in time.
 
ViperVX said:
That's correct, so FIA has until friday to appel, the whole thing will be over by the end of next week, therefore all teams, if Ferrari wins, will be able to apply in time.
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It would just be a shame for Lola and the like, unless the teams are willing to come up with some kind of compromise.
 
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