The 2010 budget cap discussion thread

[vikiradTG2007]

I fail to agree on this. FOTA clearly isn't going to win out, Ecclestone and Mosely will still be running the sport, so there is no reason why Williams would be treated harshly. You are assuming that FOTA will somehow wrestle power away from MM and BE.

They won't topple those two, but they will assume some form of power. At the end of this, both the FIA and FOTA would be able to claim that they won the battle.

 

[Hazardous]

I don't like this one bit, and I think FOTA just shot itself in the foot by doing this. FOTA is supposed to be bigger than this budget cap issue. Obviously we don't know what has been going on behind closed doors but assuming that the only reason for their suspension is the fact that they submitted their entry (a matter in which they have no choice) this is harsh move that does no favours to FOTA's credibility at all.

 

[GaryC]

Poor Brundle and Bellof.. But you can't really blame the team when they just tried to break the rules.

 

[vikiradTG2007]

Poor Brundle and Bellof.. But you can't really blame the team when they just tried to break the rules.

Well... it wasn't breaking the letter of the rule, it was violating the spirit of the rule. Ken's engineers noticed a loophole in the rules, which said that a car had to be weighed only after the race. So they ran the cars underweight for a major part of the race, then called them in for water ballast (which included the infamous buckshot). If I remember correctly, some other teams were also toying with the idea during '84, and I distinctly remember seeing a Lotus pitting for ballast in the highlights program of a race in early '84, probably Zolder.

Also, the rule about ballast says that it should be fixed in such a way that it would require tools for its removal. And dismantling a water tank to remove the buckshot from it would require tools...

So, basically, the ballast thing was exploiting the letter of the regulations to their edge. It was the discovery of traces of aromatic compounds, consistent with the fuel the team was using, in those water tanks that sparked the whole outroar.



And since they were basically the only team left with Cosworth engines in a turbocharged grid, they needed to do such a thing to stay competitive and funded.

 

[Peter3hg]

They won't topple those two, but they will assume some form of power. At the end of this, both the FIA and FOTA would be able to claim that they won the battle.

I personally don't think they will get any power beyond some basic persuasive power. I'm sure the FIA will back down to an extent on the budget cap, but they aren't going to be be relinquishing their power in a hurry, and FOTA isn't anything like strong enough to wrestle it off them.

 

[ViperVX]

I personally don't think they will get any power beyond some basic persuasive power. I'm sure the FIA will back down to an extent on the budget cap, but they aren't going to be be relinquishing their power in a hurry, and FOTA isn't anything like strong enough to wrestle it off them.

Except for Ferrari's Veto, which if they stay, they will apply to everything they don't like for next 3 seasons, so FIA can forget about introducing any changes from now on.

However i've just read that Teams are negotiating an 100m cap, with client chassis and cheaper engines/gearboxes for new teams, as an alternative already accepted by FIA and 7 teams including Williams, with Ferrari, Toyota and Renaul still negotiating details today.

 

[vikiradTG2007]

I personally don't think they will get any power beyond some basic persuasive power. I'm sure the FIA will back down to an extent on the budget cap, but they aren't going to be be relinquishing their power in a hurry, and FOTA isn't anything like strong enough to wrestle it off them.

FOCA got basic persuasive powers to start with back in the '70s. The organisation dated back to around 1964, but it only gathered momentum after Bernie bought Brabham and reorganised it into a more vocal stronghold of the British "garagistes" (it was made out of just 4 teams at the beginning, with McLaren replacing Cooper after the latter's withdrawal).

But in the aftermath of FISA+FOCA=FIASCO, they began to get more powers of decision; many FIA race officials were replaced by "Bernie's boys" (former Brabham mechanics and engineers, e.g. Herbie Blash and Charlie Whiting), and, eventually, FOCA's former legal representative beat Balestre to the post of FISA president in '91 and overall FIA president in '93.


I keep saying that this is history repeating itself with a vengeance.

 

[Peter3hg]

Except for Ferrari's Veto, which if they stay, they will apply to everything they don't like for next 3 seasons, so FIA can forget about introducing any changes from now on.

Ferrari aren't stupid. They aren't going to waste money going to go to court to have their veto slapped down again. By not accepting their Veto in the injunction, the court has effectively agreed with the FIA that Ferrari's veto is not applicable while they are acting for FOTA.

However i've just read that Teams are negotiating an 100m cap, with client chassis and cheaper engines/gearboxes for new teams, as an alternative already accepted by FIA and 7 teams including Williams, with Ferrari, Toyota and Renaul still negotiating details today.

Sounds sensible

FOCA got basic persuasive powers to start with back in the '70s. The organisation dated back to around 1964, but it only gathered momentum after Bernie bought Brabham and reorganised it into a more vocal stronghold of the British "garagistes" (it was made out of just 4 teams at the beginning, with McLaren replacing Cooper after the latter's withdrawal).

But in the aftermath of FISA+FOCA=FIASCO, they began to get more powers of decision; many FIA race officials were replaced by "Bernie's boys" (former Brabham mechanics and engineers, e.g. Herbie Blash and Charlie Whiting), and, eventually, FOCA's former legal representative beat Balestre to the post of FISA president in '91 and overall FIA president in '93.


I keep saying that this is history repeating itself with a vengeance.

I still completely fail to agree. FOTA to me has little strength, and most importantly, no people like Mosely and Ecclestone to go and seize control.

 

[ViperVX]

Ferrari aren't stupid. They aren't going to waste money going to go to court to have their veto slapped down again. By not accepting their Veto in the injunction, the court has effectively agreed with the FIA that Ferrari's veto is not applicable while they are acting for FOTA.

Have you even read the verdict? The court approved Ferrari's veto, only implied Ferrari had to use it back on the day thew new rules were introduced, so they still have it good and ready.

 

[Sir Stiggington]

Williams should have expected this tbh...

And as for the vikirad vs Peter war, I'm with vikirad on this. How can you possibly say FOTA have no power if they ARE the teams? Even if Williams does what they did, FOTA is still huge in terms of it's influence, as the FIA should listen to those who ACTUALLY own the sport...

 

[Peter3hg]

Have you even read the verdict? The court approved Ferrari's veto, only implied Ferrari had to use it back on the day thew new rules were introduced, so they still have it good and ready.

No sorry, I haven't had time because I'm in the middle of exams. I was just going off what was said on the news websites. I'll retract that statement until I have had time to read the ruling.

Williams should have expected this tbh...

And as for the vikirad vs Peter war, I'm with vikirad on this. How can you possibly say FOTA have no power if they ARE the teams? Even if Williams does what they did, FOTA is still huge in terms of it's influence, as the FIA should listen to those who ACTUALLY own the sport...

Because the teams have no power, it is all held by the FIA (and FOM to an extent). They have a limited persuasive influence but that is it. The FIA should take the teams POV on board but that doesn't mean they do.

 

[vikiradTG2007]

They have a limited persuasive influence but that is it. The FIA should take the teams POV on board but that doesn't mean they do.

Which reminds me of a line by Clive James from the 1986 Season Review about proposed rule changes for '87...

Balestre promised he would listen to everybody's point of view, before making his usual arbitrary decision.

"Arbitrary" as in "random".

 

[Susurrate]

From what I've read Williams most likely told the other FOTA members they were going to go ahead and submit their application because F1 is all they do, if they are not in F1 the are out of business. There are other reasons too, but that is the biggest one. FOTA said okay but had to suspend they because their own rules say any agreements have to be unanimous, and by suspending Williams they can still do that.

 

[SpitfireMK461]

And FOTA needs to look strong and united else the whole protest just falls apart. I'm sure there is no ill will behind the suspension, just a necessary move since Williams had to submit their entry.

 

[Red_Bull]

From what I've read Williams most likely told the other FOTA members they were going to go ahead and submit their application because F1 is all they do, if they are not in F1 the are out of business. There are other reasons too, but that is the biggest one. FOTA said okay but had to suspend they because their own rules say any agreements have to be unanimous, and by suspending Williams they can still do that.

Williams are also a much smaller team than Ferrari or Toyota and appear also to be pretty efficient, as they run to a budget that is significantly lower than the manufacturers. They may feel that they are better able to downsize their company and have no wish to remain offside with the FIA (as you say, F1 is their core business).

There may be implications with their Toyota engine deal, but from what I gather, Toyota are looking for an excuse to quit the sport anyway, so it may not change much for next year. Williams may go the USGP route and grab the Cosworth supplier.

 

[Devon]

I don't think Williams would be too worried about being suspended from FOTA, they probably already knew it was going to happen and agreed with it. They will be there next year and can handle the budget cap if it does go through, so why get distracted and caught up in it all the drama.

^ A Williams-Cosworth...that brings back bad memories.

 

[Peter3hg]

FOTA agrees on plan to help new teams

The Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) has agreed to propose a system of technical partnerships for new teams to assist them in joining the grid in 2010, following a meeting between the team principals in London yesterday, AUTOSPORT has learned.

As the teams close in on an agreement with the FIA over the future regulations of F1 ahead of tomorrow's 2010 entry deadline, FOTA hopes this compromise would allow prospective new teams assistance from the established operations to compete credibly in their first seasons without having to fund a significant increase beyond the set budget cap.

FOTA is pushing for a "glidepath" approach to adopting the budget cap regulations, with a two-step reduction in expenditure in 2010 and 2011.

This would see expenditure limited to ?100 million in 2010, dropping to ?45 for the following season.

The technical partnerships would give the new teams assistance in terms of parts, particularly non-performance differentiators, as well as some design know-how.

The FOTA proposal is believed to stop short of allowing full-blown customer cars, something that is strongly opposed by several teams, and would be structured to ensure that the newcomers compete under the budget cap in their own right in 2011.

FOTA also discussed further ways to develop the budget cap concept, with the possibility of some commonality of non-performance differentiators still on the table in a bid to repackage the imposed limit as a programme of cost containment.

Although final agreement has not been reached, it is believed that both the FIA and FOTA are confident that a resolution can be found ahead of the entry deadline.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75662

Sensible proposal.

 

[Susurrate]

As long as they don't do customer cars, I like the fact that every car is a bit different and that some teams may take a decision in the design phase for one reason and have to over come that later on in the season for example Red Bull. Red Bull went with an old style pull rod suspension system to improve handling and smooth the aerodynamics, this was their solution to to the new rules as opposed to the double diffuser which they never thought of. When they saw the other cars they went awe fuck we gotta do that too and have had a devil of a time doing it do to their suspension setup.

 

[be-ach]

As long as they don't do customer cars.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have Ferrari and a Ferrari customer car (or more likely Mclaren and a Mclaren customer car) then no Ferrari at all. But, if they start having customer cars I'd like to see in season testing back, so teams will be forced to make minor changes to their cars to be completely competitive.

 

[Peter3hg]

So they have all entered. At the moment it will be the current 10 and 3 out of Lola, ProDrive, USGPE and Campos.