The Physical Conditioning -thread

[bartboy9891]

Another thing, Muscle Milk is intended to be a supplement to aid in bulking. If you just want a protein supplement, it's better to buy it in powder form and mix it yourself. If you're really specific about it, you can control what kind of protein you want (casein, whey, whey isolate etc). Plus you can get the plain unsweetened kind and toss in a banana or other fruit and kill two birds with one stone. Buying powder is also cheaper than buying individual shakes. However, as stated, you don't need a supplement if your daily food intake is covering the bases. Meat is the best source of protein, and depending on where you live, it might be the best choice as far as cost is concerned.

 

[vikiradTG2007]

I need some help in organizing my gym routine, since I have only been doing it regularly for the last 2-3 weeks after being away for a whole year due to being busy at school. I'm looking to keep fit and shape myself properly, but not to gain exaggerated muscle mass.

And the gym also has a swimming pool facility, which I have been using as well in order to build my endurance (which is severely lacking). Any tips for that?

 

[Brother Michael]

I need some help in organizing my gym routine, since I have only been doing it regularly for the last 2-3 weeks after being away for a whole year due to being busy at school. I'm looking to keep fit and shape myself properly, but not to gain exaggerated muscle mass.

Could you be a bit more specific ? What's your current fitness level, what do you want to achieve exactly: overall fitness, build up a particular part of your body etc., how often are you planning on going to the gym....kind of difficult to give advice blindfolded

And the gym also has a swimming pool facility, which I have been using as well in order to build my endurance (which is severely lacking). Any tips for that?

"Paging Dr. Otispunkmeyer.....Dr. Otispunkmeyer to the physical conditioning section, swimming advice needed, stat"

 

[vikiradTG2007]

Could you be a bit more specific ? What's your current fitness level, what do you want to achieve exactly: overall fitness, build up a particular part of your body etc., how often are you planning on going to the gym....kind of difficult to give advice blindfolded

Overall fitness, more or less, but I need to build up a bit of mass on certain areas, specifically on my arms; and the abs are a bit weak as well, and I have to burn off a relatively thin layer of fat off those in order to make them visible. And at least for the next 5-6 weeks, I'm planning to go at least 4 or 5 times a week. Once university starts... I might only have time to go on the weekends, not really sure.

"Paging Dr. Otispunkmeyer.....Dr. Otispunkmeyer to the physical conditioning section, swimming advice needed, stat"

:lol:

 

[vikiradTG2007]

Well... any advice? Please? I'm renewing my gym subscription tomorrow for another month and want to get cracking with it.

 

[Brother Michael]

Right, here goes.

First of all the fat burning issue. Jogging, swimming, rowing machine....you won't burn fat all that well just by lifting weights. You need to get your heart rate up in order to achieve that. Running for example 3 times/week and depending on your stamina, around 8-10km each time. Swimming is a great way to burn calories and get in shape, but otispunkmeyer is our resident amphibian, so he can tell you a lot more about that. I am more of a runner myself and I can give some pointers about that if necessary.

As for the gym training...

Well, there have been loads of stuff in this thread before, so you should read through if you haven't already. In this post I wrote about training your abdominal area. But in essence you want to mix it up when training abs: don't do just the ab crunch or only the roman chair. For example one set of crunches, then roman chair, then maybe one set of static exercise and again crunches. You get the idea. At least 20-30 reps for each set. A lot of people also overlook their obliques, which is really stupid since they are very important muscles. Rotary Toso is perhaps the best thing there is for training your obliques. Also dumbbell side bends are great for this (Like so)

As for arms....bicep curls with dumbbells and curl bar (this)
Forearms - curl bar but woth a pronated grip (palms facing down instead of up)
Triceps - bench press, tricep extensions in every possible form (overhead, pull down etc.)

Shoulders - Also bench press, shoulder press, I prefer dumbells instead of a bar.

If you are going to go for example 4 times/week, I'd suggest dividing your training somehow, this is how I would roughly do it:

Day 1: Chest + shoulders - bench press x5, incline bench press with dumbbells x3, shoulder press with dumbbells x3, chest with cable crossover, high and bent x4 (2+2) (high = stand straight, trains more outside of pecks, bent = upper body bent forward, trains more the inside of pecks)

Day 2: Arms in total - bicep curl with curl bar x4, tricep extensions x4, lateral bicep curl with cable crossover (like this)

Day 3: Upper back - Lateral pull down x3, chin ups x4, one arm dumbbell row x3 OR barbell row, whichever you like best. I prefer the bar, shoulder press with bar, standing up (Note: DO NOT lower the bar behind your head, lower it to your chest and from there up).

Day4: Legs + lower back - squat x4, deadlift x4, calf machine x4, hamstring curls x4, leg press x3, and a favorite of mine for lower back: stand on a bench, feet together. Take the bar, wbout shoulder wide grip. Now lower the bar straight down to your toes, don't bend your knees. And back up. Don't put much weight, about your own weight maybe. This'll stretch your hamstrings, calves, back really well and also train your back.

Each day before you leave do abs, at least 4 sets. You shouldn't train more than 2-3 days straight and then rest. A good pace could be as follows:

Monday: Day 1
Tuesday: 10km run
Wednesday: Day 2
Thursday: rest
Friday: 10km run
Saturday: Day 3
Sunday: Day 4 + 10km run

Monday: rest
Tuesday: Day 1

And so on...

Umm...what else....you may want to buy some protein supplements depending on how good your diet is and how quickly you want results. With the type of program I just wrote it would be good to buy some protein powder and then add to that some carbohydrates. Drink immediately after every training session. And I don't know how much you have trained before, but 3-4 sets in each exercise is pretty much the perfect amount and in each set 8-15 reps, depending on the exercise. You just have to find out the correct wights for each one. The last couple of reps should always be to the breaking point, meaning the if you do, say 10 reps in the last set, the 10th should be so difficult and hard that you can't do it anymore. If you can still go on, you're not training hard enough.

If you have a friend who likes to train or who would like to start, get them to go also. It's always more fun to train with a friend than it is alsone. Also helps your motivation.

Hmm....maybe that's enough for now, I'll gladly tell more and go into more detail, just ask and you shall receive. Note that I am NOT a professional personal trainer nor do I have any degree on conditioning. I just train quite a lot myself and like to educate myself about these things,. I say this because you should always try to learn more and from many different sources and I may have some inaccuracies here and there.

Also I don't have everything listed in that mock-up program, because I simply don't know all the correct terms in English, so feel free to add more to that.

YouTube has a lot of great stuff and again I encourage to check it out. For example expertvillage is on of the best, because it is made by professionals for beginners. They have everything from weight training, to toning to aerobic exercises.

Hope this helps at least somewhat.

 

[vikiradTG2007]

^ That ought to help, but I don't really have any endurance in me, I guess. I might get about 2 km at a time under my belt if I go slowly, and I have to work on that as well.

 

[geeman]

You don't necessarily have to run. All you need to do is to keep your heart rate a bit up for 40mins+ You can do that with brisk walking.

Which what I recommend too. It's better to start light and slow and then slowly build up the speed and length.

 

[Brother Michael]

You don't necessarily have to run. All you need to do is to keep your heart rate a bit up for 40mins+ You can do that with walking.

Which what I recommend too. It's better to start light and slow and then slowly build up the speed and length.

This. I just put the 10km as a random number, because I have no idea about what fitness level everyone has currently. Can be just as well 5km. It's just that most people tend to start even too slowly. It's not the distance, but the pace which kills you.

Anyone can do 10km, just a matter of speed.

 

[vikiradTG2007]

You don't necessarily have to run. All you need to do is to keep your heart rate a bit up for 40mins+ You can do that with brisk walking.

Which what I recommend too. It's better to start light and slow and then slowly build up the speed and length.

Okay... thanks for that. Then that means that I'll be going home from my 90 minutes of driving for driving school... on foot. Google Earth says it would be about 3.5 km.

 

[bartboy9891]

Day 1: Chest + shoulders - bench press x5, incline bench press with dumbbells x3, shoulder press with dumbbells x3, chest with cable crossover, high and bent x4 (2+2) (high = stand straight, trains more outside of pecks, bent = upper body bent forward, trains more the inside of pecks)

You can't specifically target inside/outside of the chest.

Day 2: Arms in total - bicep curl with curl bar x4, tricep extensions x4, lateral bicep curl with cable crossover

Having a separate day for arms is inefficient when they are already involved in pressing/rowing on the other workout days.

Day 3: Upper back - Lateral pull down x3, chin ups x4, one arm dumbbell row x3 OR barbell row, whichever you like best. I prefer the bar, shoulder press with bar, standing up (Note: DO NOT lower the bar behind your head, lower it to your chest and from there up).

Pull ups and chinups along with rows are the best for upper back strength. If you can't do pull ups, then do negatives. Lat pull down is alright, but not great.

Day4: Legs + lower back - squat x4, deadlift x4, calf machine x4, hamstring curls x4, leg press x3, and a favorite of mine for lower back: stand on a bench, feet together. Take the bar, wbout shoulder wide grip. Now lower the bar straight down to your toes, don't bend your knees. And back up. Don't put much weight, about your own weight maybe. This'll stretch your hamstrings, calves, back really well and also train your back.

Doing sets of deadlifts and squats is far superior to doing leg press/leg curls. Based on your method of squatting, your calves might be sore already, if not then calf raises are fine.

Each day before you leave do abs, at least 4 sets. You shouldn't train more than 2-3 days straight and then rest. A good pace could be as follows:

Monday: Day 1
Tuesday: 10km run
Wednesday: Day 2
Thursday: rest
Friday: 10km run
Saturday: Day 3
Sunday: Day 4 + 10km run

If you can follow this routine with a good amount of weight for each exercise, then you're a beast. Especially on Sunday, I can't think of anyone except for maybe Olympic sprinters that can squat and deadlift heavy and run 10km right after :lol:

Umm...what else....you may want to buy some protein supplements depending on how good your diet is and how quickly you want results. With the type of program I just wrote it would be good to buy some protein powder and then add to that some carbohydrates. Drink immediately after every training session. And I don't know how much you have trained before, but 3-4 sets in each exercise is pretty much the perfect amount and in each set 8-15 reps, depending on the exercise. You just have to find out the correct wights for each one. The last couple of reps should always be to the breaking point, meaning the if you do, say 10 reps in the last set, the 10th should be so difficult and hard that you can't do it anymore. If you can still go on, you're not training hard enough.

Doing over 12 reps per set is fine as long as you're just starting to lift weights for the first time. But soon after, it's not going to be effective for strength gains. I would recommend following Starting Strength since it's fairly simple to follow and will definitely build strength in an efficient way. The basic routine is:

A)
3x5 Bench Press
3x5 Squat
1x5 Deadlift

B)
3x5 Press
3x5 Squat
5x3 Power Cleans
along with pullups or chinups to failure

On alternating days with a rest day in between and the weekends off. If you want to run or swim, you can do it on the rest days and weekends. One thing to keep in mind is that your body needs time to rest, so running 10km three times a week isn't the best strategy. Two general methods of cardio are HIIT and LISS. HIIT is high intensity interval training and LISS is low intensity steady state. If you're out of shape, LISS is probably your best bet. This could be walking/jogging a few miles, swimming laps at a constant pace, using a rowing machine at a steady pace for 5km etc.

Personally, I follow something similar and am seeing good strength gains so far. The only thing is, I'm not quite flexible enough (especially in the wrists) to do cleans correctly. I'll have one of the guys at the gym show me how to do them properly when I go back to school. There are some simple exercises that are missing from the routine like barbell rows and dips, but you can work these in if you really want to. Also you can isolation work after each workout if you're in the mood, but they might slow down your recovery time a little bit.

Download the DVD and read the wiki:
http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki

You're welcome to buy/download the book as well. It's a great resource and will answer pretty much ALL of your questions, but I found the wiki to be enough help.

 

[Brother Michael]

^That's some great info right there and just proves what I already said: what I say and write are far from the absolute best way of acting.

Though I disagree about having separate day for arms, because while you get a good workout for triceps and shoulder muscles with bench press, pull ups etc, I feel it isn't quite enough to get you strong arms as a whole, especially biceps. Of course nothing is stopping anyoe from integrating arm exercises as a part of other days' program.

If you can follow this routine with a good amount of weight for each exercise, then you're a beast. Especially on Sunday, I can't think of anyone except for maybe Olympic sprinters that can squat and deadlift heavy and run 10km right after :lol:

Depends on the way one trains. I can do that, I find light paced running great after a leg workout, helps the recovery in the sense that I don't feel that stiff the next day. Of course I am not a bulked up beefcake nor do I intend to be one. My training regime isn't "more weight is better". I concentrate on a thorough exercise on each part of my body. I like explosiveness, flexibility and such. That's why I can, and do, run after leg exercises.

 

[bartboy9891]

^That's some great info right there and just proves what I already said: what I say and write are far from the absolute best way of acting.

Though I disagree about having separate day for arms, because while you get a good workout for triceps and shoulder muscles with bench press, pull ups etc, I feel it isn't quite enough to get you strong arms as a whole, especially biceps. Of course nothing is stopping anyoe from integrating arm exercises as a part of other days' program.

As far as strength training goes, triceps are hit hard in both bench and overhead press. Biceps are in use during chin ups, pull ups but less so, and rows. Having strong biceps also comes in handy if you're using mixed grip for deadlifts, since there is a reduced chance of tearing your biceps if they are strong. Even if you are just training for looks (to get the girls!), you won't get a whole lot out of doing many isolation exercises unless you are already fairly strong. The key to gaining muscle mass, by the way, is in you diet, you won't get big unless you eat big. Lots of boxers for instance can look pretty small but actually be very strong for their size.

But lets say you were training for a while and you are able to deadlift 2x your body weight, do lots of chin ups, row your body weight and so on. At this point, you may benefit from dedicating time to working your biceps. The reason is, your biceps are being worked as accessory muscles already, so they would be stronger than when you first started. On top of this your grip would be relatively strong at this point and your wrists would be able to handle quite a bit of weight. As a result, when doing curls you can start at a higher weight and your grip and wrists aren't going to be limiting factors. This means you can really target the bicep itself without worrying about the other muscles involved. Compare that to a beginner, who has to start with a low weight and may be restricted in the sets they can do because it hurts their wrists (common problem). This can be applied to other isolation exercises as well. Now as you said, this doesn't mean you can't do two or three sets of curls at the end of a workout, but putting in a day at the gym just for arms is excessive at this point.

Depends on the way one trains. I can do that, I find light paced running great after a leg workout, helps the recovery in the sense that I don't feel that stiff the next day. Of course I am not a bulked up beefcake nor do I intend to be one. My training regime isn't "more weight is better". I concentrate on a thorough exercise on each part of my body. I like explosiveness, flexibility and such. That's why I can, and do, run after leg exercises.

What I said was "If you can follow this routine with a good amount of weight for each exercise, then you're a beast." When I say good amount of weight, I mean anywhere between 75% and 85% of your 1 rep max for your working sets. This is generally the window in which you get the most strength gains. Let's use me as an example (I'm still weak so judge accordingly). My 1rm for deadlifts is ~270lbs. Now my working set should be roughly 230lbs to get the most out of the workout as far as strength goes. Now if I were to apply that to both squats and deadlifts, there is no way I would be able to do an effective cardio exercise immediately afterwards.

Now I'm not going to say you should quit everything you are doing, but you may benefit from focusing a little more on strength and decreasing the length or frequency of your cardio routine. Keep in mind that gymnasts, sprinters and basketball players aren't generally what you think of when the word "beefcake" comes up. But they all do weight training for strength and modified version of strength training programs for explosive power. If you want explosive power by the way, the Olympic lifts might be right down your alley. I know that cyclists focus on doing cleans for instance. You may benefit from doing them as well. And if running 10km for you is as simple to you as walking two miles to the average person, then by all means continue. But keep in mind that the body does need to rest.

 

[Brother Michael]

Yeah, I see where you're coming from, but I think I may have stated myself a bit unclearly: I don't go for a run immediately after the workout. Let's say I go to gym at noon, I might go for a run around 21.00.

And yeah, 10km isn't that much for me if I don't push it by running really fast. Then again I do a fairly good amount of cardio, I play tennis a lot, hill sprinting is in my weekly schedule... And as for my size, I am fairly strong: I am only 5'7", 160lbs and for example my deadlift max is around 360lbs (haven't actually tried for the longest time) and my normal workout weight is about 240lbs. It should be a bit higher going by the 75% rule, but then again I do fairly long sets, 10 reps usually. I consider that to be a good amount of weight, for a guy my size that is.

So yeah, I can deadlift over 2x my own weight, chin ups....umm....around 25-30, might be more, but I doubt it.

But you do have a good point, I should've written maybe something more suiting for a beginner and less isolating exercises, which I do a lot. Reading your comments makes me think that I may be underestimating my own performance level. I realise I am in good shape, but it seems I may have written stuff which is a bit too demanding for a beginner This is what you get when you downplay yourself a lot....I have never considered myself to be in that good condition, mainly because everyday there comes someone who is always stronger, faster, more agile etc.

So Vikirad, if you're reading this, it's better to listen to the guy above, apparently I know nothing

And yeah, I do realise the body needs rest; I learned it the hard way last autumn...

 

[bartboy9891]

Yeah, I see where you're coming from, but I think I may have stated myself a bit unclearly: I don't go for a run immediately after the workout. Let's say I go to gym at noon, I might go for a run around 21.00.

Ah I see, as long as you've got the energy then go for it.

And yeah, 10km isn't that much for me if I don't push it by running really fast. Then again I do a fairly good amount of cardio, I play tennis a lot, hill sprinting is in my weekly schedule... And as for my size, I am fairly strong: I am only 5'7", 160lbs and for example my deadlift max is around 360lbs (haven't actually tried for the longest time) and my normal workout weight is about 240lbs. It should be a bit higher going by the 75% rule, but then again I do fairly long sets, 10 reps usually. I consider that to be a good amount of weight, for a guy my size that is.

Deadlifts are very intense and are generally best utilized in lower reps. You can add close to 50lbs to your workout weight and simply lower the reps to maximize your gains. Everyone is slightly different and it's hard to determine progression with compound exercises when different reps/sets are being used. But as long as your grip holds, you can probably punch out 5 reps at 300lbs. Your max is nearly 100lbs more than mine, but our working sets are nearly identical

So yeah, I can deadlift over 2x my own weight, chin ups....umm....around 25-30, might be more, but I doubt it.

But you do have a good point, I should've written maybe something more suiting for a beginner and less isolating exercises, which I do a lot. Reading your comments makes me think that I may be underestimating my own performance level. I realise I am in good shape, but it seems I may have written stuff which is a bit too demanding for a beginner This is what you get when you downplay yourself a lot....I have never considered myself to be in that good condition, mainly because everyday there comes someone who is always stronger, faster, more agile etc.

So Vikirad, if you're reading this, it's better to listen to the guy above, apparently I know nothing

And yeah, I do realise the body needs rest; I learned it the hard way last autumn...

The squat is a pretty solid indicator of level of strength (beginner vs. intermediate). For your weight, squatting 250+ or 260+ means you are close to being an intermediate as far as strength goes. If you list the rest of your stats, you can see where you are in bench press and shoulder/overhead press. If you are at intermediate level for all those, then you can probably advance beyond the beginner programs to something else.

Usually at this point, it depends on what you want to do. Once you are at intermediate stage, you can focus on working more isolation work in and see gains from it. But there are still structured programs out there that you may benefit from. If you want to work on looks, there are programs for that. If you want to continue to get stronger, there are programs for that. Neither of these types are mutually exclusive, they simply have different goals in mind. I can point you in the right direction if you're interested.

Personally, I would say to check out the Olympic lifts: the clean and it's variants like the hang clean, power clean, clean and jerk; and the snatch and it's variants like the power snatch, hang snatch; and all the accessory lifts like overhead squat, front squat, jump shrug, hang pull, and high pull. Since you play tennis a lot, you want explosive power while working out your whole body. Clean and jerk's focus is on moving weight quickly in a coordinated motion. It's basically combining a light deadlift into a front squat and then into a shoulder press (push press really). The thing with these lifts is that they are hard to learn. If you're one of those people that likes to learn things on their own then it's definitely possible. I'm kind of paranoid of getting injured and need instruction on these lifts, otherwise I'd be doing them. If you're interested, I can link you some guides to both intermediate lifting routines or Olympic lift instruction.

 

[Shaman]

A really nice and helpful web page with tons of exercises shown in gif format...

http://www.coopersguns.com/videos/exercise-encyclopedia/

 

[bartboy9891]

Here's another well known resource

http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Directory.html

 

[nsx_23]

I can't believe how damn weak I am after only 2 weeks of not going to the gym thanks to uni exams.

I hit the gym hard on Sunday, but its Tuesday now and my deltoids and Chest are still aching like hell from all the chest pressing and other weight machines. My back, triceps and biceps are fine, its just those two......

Surprisingly, my leg is now doing just fine after the operation Some relatively light leg presses and treadmill are really helping it recover fully.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

guys i have a question

if the objective of your gym training is to gain decent lean muscle mass (say several kilo over year) and if you have 3 gym sessions a week (3 definate sessions as a minimum)

is it best to

A) do an all over body work out... so arms, legs, chest, back, core etc

or

B) do more isolated work outs... so ie monday = upper body, wednesday = core, friday = legs/lower body


im currently trying B to see if it works. I used to do A and while i think i got a decent result, the routine takes too long and eats into what little free/relax time i have. it also got a bit of a chore to go to the gym and do the same thing over n over.

with B i can cut the work out time down and each session is different. i try to make up for essentially doing one part of the body a week by merging routines. For instance when i do mainly upper work ill be sure to add in a few key core/leg exercises to give my arms a break during the session.

I aim to spend an hour in the gym. which makes the whole going to the gym process take about an hour and a half - hour n 3/4. (travel/showering)

also, seems to be some knowledgable people here.... ill post the two seperate work outs at some point. take a look, see if im being sensible.

 

[NooDle]

B. Doing everything every time is too straining, you need to give the muscles time to relax.
There was this one dude in my gym who wanted to do exactly what you described, and he came in every day and did a different group of muscles.