NJ: Do you believe in god? No? No, you can't have kids, not yours.

argatoga said:
I wouldn't blame religion itself. People will and have always found non religious reasons to kill and otherwise be nasty to one another.
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More people have died in the name of religion than for any other reason. Explain that.

Now explain "Thou shall not kill".
 
WHAT THE FUCK?!



MassFacepalm.jpg
 
Really? A State Judge? Bible is a great book, but, only selected [privileged] should be allowed near it, otherwise we get stuff like that.

A few years back one very smart man told me: those who are capable of understanding The Bible (or any other Holy Book) don't need to read it, those who read and can't understand it, but made it their "table" book, cause all the problems.
 
LeVeL said:
More people have died in the name of religion than for any other reason. Explain that.
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Not a good idea to challenge a History major like that. :p

Off the top of my head I can think of the following wars not fought over religion: WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Russian civil war, Japanese Russian War, Iraq, Franco Prussian War, Napoleon's wars, Opium Wars, etc. Most modern war has not been fought due to religion.

Now lets go to ancient wars. Rome did not conquer for religion they conquered mainly for greed, glory, and security (buffers).

In fact wars between polytheistic peoples were not fought over religion as both sides didn't have issues with there being other gods.

The Egyptian Hittite war for instance was fought over control of the Levant. The Hittites destroyed the Mittani as they were seen as a threat. The Persians did not give a shit what gods their subjugated population worshiped.

Lets go later in history. The Ottoman Turks conquered Greece but allowed the Orthodox church to survive intact (Istanbul is still the seat of the Church). The Norman conquest of Southern Italy was done for money and power. When most of Europe was Catholic there were plenty of wars between the Catholic states. Barbarossa had to fight many wars in what is now Germany in order to remain in power. He also had to head off to Italy on many occasions to put down the city states such a Millan. None of this was fought over religion.

I can come up with more examples, but as you can see plenty of wars were not fought over religion.

LeVeL said:
Now explain "Thou shall not kill".
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Umm killing is generally wrong. I have no problem with that. Oh and there are other religions than Christianity and Judaism. It can be argued that the braking of that religious commandment shows that religion was ignored so (and not the reason) wars could be fought.
 
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ViperVX said:
Really? A State Judge? Bible is a great book, but, only selected [privileged] should be allowed near it, otherwise we get stuff like that.

A few years back one very smart man told me: those who are capable of understanding The Bible (or any other Holy Book) don't need to read it, those who read and can't understand it, but made it their "table" book, cause all the problems.
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no no, I think EVERYONE should read the Bible, nothing will reveal how ridiculous the Bible is than reading the Bible itself. Here are some of my favorite passages from the book that people say provide a moral standard for society.


Its alright to keep slaves
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

45Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
Lev. 25:44-46

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Genocide, etc
15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against Jehovah in the matter of Peor, and so the plague was among the congregation of Jehovah.

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women-children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Num. 31:15-18
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Stone your disobedient children to death.
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
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Jesus sayin some stuff
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
-Jesus
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more genocide
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Samuel 15:3
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Some folks bitched too much so God set light to them
And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

Oh yes. and there's much, MUCH more. Slavery, genocide, discrimination, captial punishment for a variety of stupid-ass reasons, intolerance of religion, religious wars, etc etc etc...

Fun Site

To be fair it gets better with Jesus but I'd hardly call it a base for morality. It's the people who take this crap seriously that cause all the problems.
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
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-Richard Dawkins?

EDIT: Also, "thou shalt not kill" only applies to God's chosen people. It should read, "Thou shalt not kill other Jews"
 
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Even with my limited knowlege of the US Constitution and the Bill of rights I can fairly say that this verdict will not stand after the apeal. So let?s all calm down, it?s just one Judge trying to get his Name into the Press or to manipulate public opinion on that matter. Let?s treat him like a forumtroll and give him no more attention.
 
Except unlike a forumtroll, a judge has the power to ruin a lot of people's lives.
 
thevictor390 said:
Except unlike a forumtroll, a judge has the power to ruin a lot of people's lives.
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... I?m not saying he (or his verdict) should be ignored by the public, but I think we shouldn?t make too much of a fuss out of it (because I guess that?s what he wants - or he really is stupid and belives his verdict will stay). This is not the end of Secularism in the United States ... when the apeal is through, this will be filed under "amusing" not "alarming".
 
Secularism in the United States? Really? Really?
 
I thought we secular folk were The Devil and all that? At least that's what I keep getting told.


...but the repented child molester and killer will be going to heaven.
 
Its funny how the country founded on secularistificatory(not a word) principles is one of the most religious (and violent) countries on the planet.
 
GET OFF MY LAWN YOU SLY-TONGUED DEVIL BEFORE I START SHOOTING!

.... probably gay too.
 
Back in the old days, you couldn't give witness in court or be a godfather if you weren't confirmated, at least in Norway.

In that context, I see how the US govt. was meant to be secular.

Now, these days, you wouldn't have much of a problem becoming the head of state in Norway if you're a declared atheist. There is some legal mumbo jumbo about how many people in the cabinet who has to be members of the Norwegian Lutheran Church, but at least it won't limit you much during the election.

Could you honestly say the same about the secular United States of America? :)
 
Unfortunately not. I doubt an atheist could become president. Hell there were people bitching when Kennedy became president because he was Catholic. There is still hope though. The U.S. is becoming less concerned about religion in the public (it should be a private thing). We are behind Europe, but making progress.
 
LeVeL said:
Wow. Just wow. Unbelieavable. Religion is such fucking bullshit, it makes my blood boil. That judge needs to be lynched.
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That judge is correctly interpreting the law as laid down by the New Jersey state constitution. The problem is with the law rather than the judge, for which the state politicians of NJ need to be lynched.

Religious types have absolutely nothing to do with it!
 
No, according to the law, you could just as easily deny Christian parents an adoption because that would also influence the child's decision to worship or not at his free will.

EDIT: here's the quote:
no person shall be deprived of the inestimable privilege of worshiping Almighty God in a manner agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience
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So if the child's conscience was different from the teachings of his religious parents, the same would apply.
 
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nomix said:
Back in the old days, you couldn't give witness in court or be a godfather if you weren't confirmated, at least in Norway.

In that context, I see how the US govt. was meant to be secular.

Now, these days, you wouldn't have much of a problem becoming the head of state in Norway if you're a declared atheist. There is some legal mumbo jumbo about how many people in the cabinet who has to be members of the Norwegian Lutheran Church, but at least it won't limit you much during the election.

Could you honestly say the same about the secular United States of America? :)
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No, and its a damn fucking shame. Though there are probably a few atheists in the government who just say they're of faith to not commit political suicide.
 
Religion sucks and nothing good has ever come out of it.






There.
 
It seems like the judge is correctly interpreting the law. Now if you want to argue the law should be changed, I won't stop you there. I figure the kid will grow up and do what she likes regardless of the State of NJ, Illinois, or her parents beliefs.

I presume that'd be okay with everyone, right? We are a nation of personal choice in religion and not "Thou Shalt worship as thine parents would have you".
 
Sometimes i'm glad that there is not much religion around here, so things like that couldn't happen here.
 
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