Random Thoughts (Political Edition)

On the other hand... I would be nervous about a British made reactor. You guys have not been the best when it comes to things related to electricity. :D Perhaps you can buy some from the Japanese instead. :D

*coughthreemileislandcough*


Assuming that global warming is a man-made problem, which the evidence seems to be contradicting, it's the only solution we have today, right now, ready to deploy.

Well lets call it global climate destabilization which AFAIK the big majority of scientific scholars agree is happening and at the human man made extra CO2 levels are responsible for.


And discarding hydro and geothermal based on needing specific locations is weird. Hawaii has active volcanoes and could easily be powered by geothermal. There's a few other spots like Yellowstone has volcanic activity close to the surface (as it's one of those super volcanoes)
I think the potential for geothermal is something like twice our current needs.
Although not easily "harvested" as most of the places gets so very little of it. But for a single or a few households you can still use it as geothermal heating. And if you put that together with a system for putting back excess heat during the summer and a few solar panels which warms up water which heat you store in the ground you could get a heating system that covers all your heating and cooling needs for years. rather than using an oil burner and AC during the summer.

Hydro while damming up a river still creates a lot of electricity for very little labour and only some interruption of wildlife. It can be done in a lot of places. just the Congo river could probably power a huge part of the south part of Africa.

Solar power has a few problems, one being it only produces power during the sun is up. But in a global grid the sun always shines on some part of the planet. And the electric consumption does go down at night. But the best places to put these solar plants is in desserts which you can find all around the globe, have fairly little cloud coverage and the impact on wildlife is minimal.

Wind turbines are great. once they're up and running they produce electricity for 50 odd years with minor repair and maintenance.

The best solution is not to pursue just one alternative but all of them where they make the most sense. And continuing using the nuclear power plants we have that are capable of running and perhaps even building a few new ones does make sense. The more they're used the higher the efficiency for the next generation of the same technology will be. That's almost always the case. And I really hope Copenhagen will see some good results in the worlds energy creation being shifted from fossil too renewable.
And I'd first concentrate on electricity and house heating rather than fuel for cars, ships and planes. ... but building more and better train networks could certainly lessen the need for the other types of transport. (especially if someone makes one of those vacuum tube frictionless trains...)
 
I wonder, if the ecomentalists are so concerned about getting all their legislation passed, why they don't just present it in a different way that isn't so easily refuted or ignored? Is it really essential to the whole argument that "greenhouse gases will make the blue-bellied whooping whatsits extinct" can't be replaced with "carbon dioxide will give you cancer and kill you"?

And why, instead of making the dubious claim of making manufacturers "more responsible to the Earth", can't they just say "make things more efficient"? Most input or waste-output reducing methods are, in fact, more cost-effective and efficient for a company.

They don't have to do any of that anymore, they just empowered the EPA to do it. The EPA just declared a bunch of Greenhouse gases dangerous including CO2 which under the Clean Air Act means they can regulate the emission of such gases by companies, states, vehicles, farms, individuals... without any approval from Congress.
 
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What? They#ve only just declared CO2 to be a bad thing? Jesus Christ. What next, this new invention called "fire"?
 
*coughthreemileislandcough*

Yup. And TMI didn't actually kill anyone. Not only that, it didn't change the statistical cancer, death, or birth defect rate in the area at all. Not one percent.

Turns out that for decades before the plant was even proposed, the place had a pretty high rate of those problems anyway. Moral of story - don't live near Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, reactor or no.

Well lets call it global climate destabilization which AFAIK the big majority of scientific scholars agree is happening and at the human man made extra CO2 levels are responsible for.

Um, no. Look at the data, the CO2 levels follow the temperature changes, not precede it. Plus, even if you do believe that CO2 is somehow magically changing climate ahead of its own concentration rising, how do you explain that the other planets in our solar system seem to be warming and cooling at the same general rate in the same timeframe as the Earth? Did we plant colonies on Mars when I wasn't looking? When did we ship millions of SUVs there?

Thebigtemperaturepicture.png


Notice the predicted temperature path from what the CRU/IPCC liars said versus reality. (The little green arrow points to the actual current situation.) Also, notice that the frequency between midpoints is about 11 years... what do we know that peaks and drops in approximate 11 year cycles... oh, wait, that would be THE SUN. You know, big yellow fusion reaction thing in the sky, warms entire planets at light-hour distances?

It is SOLAR POWERED, people. There is nothing we can do about it. Unless, of course, you believe that we can somehow control the sun, in which case I have a nice tinfoil hat for you to wear.

Chart solar activity against global temperature averages. You will find a direct correlation.



And discarding hydro and geothermal based on needing specific locations is weird. Hawaii has active volcanoes and could easily be powered by geothermal. There's a few other spots like Yellowstone has volcanic activity close to the surface (as it's one of those super volcanoes)
I think the potential for geothermal is something like twice our current needs.

Geothermal turns out to be stupid expensive (especially in maintenance) and if the volcano decides to erupt you lose your power plant. They still build them there anyway, but they're not exactly a great answer.

Also, um, where exactly would you propose to put a geothermal or hydro plant in Texas?

Although not easily "harvested" as most of the places gets so very little of it. But for a single or a few households you can still use it as geothermal heating. And if you put that together with a system for putting back excess heat during the summer and a few solar panels which warms up water which heat you store in the ground you could get a heating system that covers all your heating and cooling needs for years. rather than using an oil burner and AC during the summer.

Uh, what? How the hell does THAT work? How do you 'store heat' for months and months on end without an active power source?

Hydro while damming up a river still creates a lot of electricity for very little labour and only some interruption of wildlife. It can be done in a lot of places. just the Congo river could probably power a huge part of the south part of Africa.

At the cost of destroying whatever ecosystem you build the dam in front of, hoping the river doesn't flood too badly and that you built the dam right. Not to mention that the river can no longer be used for commerce. And that the ecomentalists will let you. Which they won't.

I suggest you google the Three Gorges Dam.

Solar power has a few problems, one being it only produces power during the sun is up. But in a global grid the sun always shines on some part of the planet. And the electric consumption does go down at night. But the best places to put these solar plants is in desserts which you can find all around the globe, have fairly little cloud coverage and the impact on wildlife is minimal.

I suggest you look up 'electric transmission line losses'. You cannot pump worthwhile amounts of electricity around the globe. In fact, you can't even ship it more than halfway across the US.

Wind turbines are great. once they're up and running they produce electricity for 50 odd years with minor repair and maintenance.

No, they don't. They produce a quarter or so of rated power and have to be taken down for extensive repairs about every 5-10 years, including complete overhauls on a regular basis. Between what the British Government has had to admit and what Pacific Gas And Electric has found in their windfarms over the past 30 years, wind is a very expensive high maintenance and not very reliable generation system.


The best solution is not to pursue just one alternative but all of them where they make the most sense. And continuing using the nuclear power plants we have that are capable of running and perhaps even building a few new ones does make sense. The more they're used the higher the efficiency for the next generation of the same technology will be. That's almost always the case. And I really hope Copenhagen will see some good results in the worlds energy creation being shifted from fossil too renewable.
And I'd first concentrate on electricity and house heating rather than fuel for cars, ships and planes. ... but building more and better train networks could certainly lessen the need for the other types of transport. (especially if someone makes one of those vacuum tube frictionless trains...)

Certainly pursuing all of them is not a bad idea, but the only one that will work everywhere, in all weather conditions, day in and day out, is nuclear.

Also, those 'frictionless trains'? Never going to happen, not if people are smart - too much to go wrong and they won't be 'frictionless' anyway.


What? They#ve only just declared CO2 to be a bad thing? Jesus Christ. What next, this new invention called "fire"?

CO2 is not a pollutant, it's plant food. And, by the way, necessary for us to get the oxygen we breathe through plant photosynthesis.
 
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In the US, the numbers are not secret, they are quite public and easily available.



As for "what we should be doing" - that would be, what, exactly?
1. Citation for a set of publicly available accounts, internet would be good - where in these would the Insurance Premiums show up exactly? If what you say is true I will drop my objection on cost grounds - so long as the books are as good or better than Worldcom.

2. Well it may be your only solution but then you do not live on a wind swept island in the Atlantic with high tides and tidal reaches that can and should be barraged now do you? Also we are built on coal and modern techniques are developing (and should be more so) to clean the crap out of the combustion processes (hello carbon capture) and we are still surrounded by oil - now I know Texas has loads of the stuff left too, so we should invest in working out how to burn the stuff cleanly.

We are paying the Frogs shed loads of money to build Nuclear power stations. That permits countries like, oh I do not know, say IRAN to say "you are building squllions of these things we need them too". When really they are building bombs to destroy all their infidel enemies.

Building electric cars will not work unless the electricity being produced, I agree, is clean too, there is more than one way to get clean electricity. We had a scientist in the 70s who had a brilliant wave system - binned!
 
1. Citation for a set of publicly available accounts, internet would be good - where in these would the Insurance Premiums show up exactly? If what you say is true I will drop my objection on cost grounds - so long as the books are as good or better than Worldcom.

2. Well it may be your only solution but then you do not live on a wind swept island in the Atlantic with high tides and tidal reaches that can and should be barraged now do you? Also we are built on coal and modern techniques are developing (and should be more so) to clean the crap out of the combustion processes (hello carbon capture) and we are still surrounded by oil - now I know Texas has loads of the stuff left too, so we should invest in working out how to burn the stuff cleanly.

We are paying the Frogs shed loads of money to build Nuclear power stations. That permits countries like, oh I do not know, say IRAN to say "you are building squllions of these things we need them too". When really they are building bombs to destroy all their infidel enemies.

Building electric cars will not work unless the electricity being produced, I agree, is clean too, there is more than one way to get clean electricity. We had a scientist in the 70s who had a brilliant wave system - binned!

Because of our runaway tort system over here, we introduced this act for nuclear reactor liability: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price–Anderson_Nuclear_Industries_Indemnity_Act Because of this, the insurance industry is willing to insure reactors as there is a limit on liability. Insurance is therefore a non-issue, IMHO. However, if you wish to delve into the books, take a look at the SEC filings of TXU, Luminant, and Energy Future Holdings Corporation. Also, see: http://www.nuclearinsurance.com/

Actually, burning oil is stupid - the stuff is useful for so much more that setting it on fire is a damn waste. I would rather run nukes and use the oil for making plastics, polymers, medicines, etc., etc.

Coal burning actually releases more radioactives into the air than TMI ever did.

Iran has been offered complete turnkey reactors for free and they've said no. So that's not exactly a valid excuse either.

Finally, if your guy is the one I'm thinking of, they actually built his system off the California Coast in the late 70s or 80s. It turned out to be an utter failure in practice.
 
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SPECTRE.

No you miss my point on the insurance - the fact of the indemnity and the need for it shows how the industry (Insurance Industry -- the experts at assessing risk) will not write the business open ended. Your Federal government and hence the US tax payer has taken the risk slice above 10 Billion USD - that is the point. The Government is really the insurer, any serious accident in the US will easily 'burn' that limit on one claim.

Essentially my point stands, to build these things the Government must be the insurer of last resort - now I am sorry but that is not Capitalism, that is Socialism.

Thank you for the citations btw.

He was the nodding donkey man - but one word of warning about "facts" from the 70s, that was a time of the cold war and there were (are) powerful lobbies around the world at that time at least who did not want green solutions. The nodding donkeys were a great first step to be developed. No money available of course. Hang on let me have a dekko.
 
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SPECTRE.

No you miss my point on the insurance - the fact of the indemnity and the need for it shows how the industry (Insurance Industry -- the experts at assessing risk) will not write the business open ended. Your Federal government and hence the US tax payer has taken the risk slice above 10 Billion USD - that is the point. The Government is really the insurer, any serious accident in the US will easily 'burn' that limit on one claim.

Essentially my point stands, to build these things the Government must be the insurer of last resort - now I am sorry but that is not Capitalism, that is Socialism.

Thank you for the citations btw.

However, even Three Mile Island didn't go anywhere near that cap, and that's about the worst that we can reasonably expect.

Also, insurers won't write *anything* open ended any more, not just nuclear plants, so the government has to step in and do things like this. IMHO, it is not as significant as you make it out to be.

As for the tidal generation being covered up? No, this was California and I think it was Stanford or Berkley that built it. It just never worked right; it did generate power, but not economically and it required far more to maintain than people had thought.
 
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No but had three mile island done a chernobyle then it would have. Your insurance industry can not offer full cover? Who is bearing the risk then?

[YOUTUBE]DLJ2eUHP2PI[/YOUTUBE]

A real one (British weather btw).

[YOUTUBE]Bf5fOr8XjpY[/YOUTUBE]

Obviously under invested. .. But hey!

Any how we have a 40ft tidal barrage across the severn estuary I'd develop before any nuclear powerstation - as you so cleavily said our engineering is crap - whay we are allowing the French to build them.
 
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No but had three mile island done a chernobyle then it would have. Your insurance industry can not offer full cover? Who is bearing the risk then?

As bad as TMI was, Chernobyl was not possible in any Western reactor. There are too many passive safeties that one would have to destroy in order to even get close to potentially starting it, and the reactor would simply shut down anyway.

Basically, you would have to repeal Archimedes' Law and gravity to get a Western reactor to Chernobyl. Even blowing it up or ramming something into it won't make it run away like the Russian designs. They just shut down.

Then there's the experience of the US nuclear Navy - not one single reactor accident in its entire history, including sunken nuclear submarines and nuclear ships both on fire and taking combat damage.

The Russians are great at making rifles and other simple technology, but claiming that a Russian reactor design is typical of all reactors is like finding a Lada and saying that all cars are terrible because of it.

And yes, they've tried those flap-type generators over here. Turns out they are stupidly maintenance intensive (even on the East Coast which has similar tides to your little island) and don't actually break even in commercial use.
 
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Oh I think an accident of that magnitude was possible in the West actually - not that one but there are many possible - in the UK flixborough and Dunsfield(ha Dunsfold - TG track - sorry there) for instance (not nuclear but very dangerous industrial plants that went bang). Ask any Russian before the accident if that was possible and they would say no.

Everyone believes that they are "perfect", everyone has the possibility for being rubbish - believe me.

Americans do not receive an inoculation against being rubbish, neither does anyone else.
 
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Oh I think an accident of that magnitude was possible in the West actually - not that one but there are many possible - in the UK flixborough and Dunsfold for instance. Ask any Russian before the accident if that was possible and they would say no.

Actually, the post-mortem on Chernobyl showed that many Russian nuclear scientists had blown the whistle on the design, IIRC.

Also, note that TMI's safety systems actually did function as advertised, then someone went to start it back up again... which caused the worst possible kind of accident, a core melt... and the safety systems still worked despite deliberate human stupidity. The containment vessel worked, the shielding worked.

See: http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/3mile-isle.html

Everyone believes that they are "perfect", everyone has the possibility for being rubbish - believe me.

Americans do not receive an inoculation against being rubbish, neither does anyone else.

True, but then we don't put Lucas parts in our reactors either. :lol::mrgreen:
 
Its OK we have shut down our volume car production - you guys are just getting around to it - Mexico hellooooo.
A question I want answered is why do our politicans vote for mucking up their own countries? I never voted for the things that make it cheaper for 3rd world people to do loads of jobs we used to do - someone some where is making shed loads of money out of this. There was an interview on US TV that seems to have disappeared off of Youtube where he predicted such an outcome. Speaking as someone whos skills are now severly discounted and who may be considered as getting on a bit I do not want to start on the bottom of a ladder with a load of bright youngsters at a severe pay cut - so stuck really.
 
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Its OK we have shut down our volume car production - you guys are just getting around to it - Mexico hellooooo.

Yes, but goddamn Lucas is still around and supplying parts to others.

Also, did you miss the announcement that people are moving plants and production to the US instead? See the Mercedes C-class announcement for example?

The problem isn't that American tech or skills are rubbish, it's that American union products are rubbish. There are plenty of high quality cars getting made here and exported elsewhere. They're just not made by the UAW.
 
Do not buy the crap I would say - why do they?

Careful we though our engineers - saw off johnny Nazi you know - were good. That was totally discounted by the soft skills people (crap marketeers and finance) who really buggered up UK manufacturing. Mrs Thatcher and a load of Oil (stupidly high exchange rate) was the final straw.
 
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Do not buy the crap I would say - why do they?

Careful we though our engineers - saw off johnny Nazi you know - were good. That was totally discounted by the soft skills people who really buggered up UK manufacturing. Mrs Thatcher and a load of Oil (stupidly high exchange rate) was the final straw.

You guys do generate a lot of brilliant engineers, no denying that... but then you guys never seem to appreciate them, generally promote only the terrible ones, and the good ones have to go elsewhere to build the stunning projects they want. Apple's chief designer is British, for example. And he was told by many British firms that he would never amount to anything. Well, not so much....


Meanwhile, back in old Blighty, we have engineers and management enthusiastically approving, building, and selling things like relays meant for external use that have no weatherproofing whatsoever. Which one of you (the generic you) idiots thought this was a GOOD idea?
 
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Probably do not actually - probably made in China or India. Not much gets made here any more. If it says made in EU then that will be one of the former Soviet Bloc countries.
 
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Probably do not actually - probably made in China or India. Not much gets made here any more.

It says Lucas/TRW, made in UK, and it cost me $24 at the local dealership with a 2007 production code.

If you really want to play, I have more examples.
 
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I apologise for the poor design and workmanship of Lucas Industries. Do you need your 24USD back?
 
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Not especially. It only cost me $0.50 to get the gasket the relay was missing from a specialty vendor over here.

The funny part is that the relay is clearly designed to have seals, but you guys couldn't be arsed to actually install them; and nobody has ever seen one with the seal installed at the factory.

That reminds me, are you familiar with Caerbont Industries? I would imagine so since you have a Seven.
 
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