track car build brainstorm

Wait lets go combine your ideas with mine and Levels...

91 miata (lightest) with a rover/buick v8... Small compact car with a small compact engine capable of 300+hp. Start with this front subframe http://www.v8roadsters.com/category-s/98.htm and you shave weight off the factory subframe and can weld any mounts you want on it :D

I actually thought about this once before, but no way to make that swap smog legal here in CA.
Isn't the LS1 the lightest V8 out there? Aluminum and all...


miata, every other rx mazda, exige/elise and Porsches. nothing else thats affordable comes to my mind. Maybe a caterham or ariel atom. As your platform, you want something that handles good and is light. You dont want an M3 as you would have throw everything out of it and that cost $$ and is time consuming. its easier to make a car more powerful, rather then make it lighter.
E36 weighs about the same as FD actually.


EDIT:
I think I got that quote from another user from this forum:

Colin Chapman (founder of Lotus): "Adding power makes you faster on the straights; subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
Oooh, very very true. Except top-end
 
E36 weighs about the same as FD actually.

I though you were talking about the new m3. lol. making that into a racing car would be fun. take out the whole cockpit, leather, sat nav. lol. ouch, I dont think I could do it. E36 is muuuuch better. I ve seen plenty of race speced E36 around my country club. But then even so, the stock E36 is 200Kb heavier than a stock FD. thats still a noticeable difference. Take out every seat, glass, door panels and you still might be a bit shy of the stock FD weight. You can't beat the light weight of a rotary !! ^^ lol.

to see what FD3S is all about I usually quote people to this video:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HezsZgVFUXU[/YOUTUBE]

for me FD is better then sex, but then again, I m a rotary kinna guy ^^ lol
 
^However, 2ZZ MR2 Spyders are smog legal, provided you get the years of the car and engine donor to align properly.

OOOOH! Forgot about the 2zz celica. Problem is it has the issue the elise has (arguably worse thanks to 200 extra pounds). I think Level is looking for something that when he stomps on the throttle it bashes his skull into the seat and could hit some high top speeds.

miata, every other rx mazda, exige/elise and Porsches. nothing else thats affordable comes to my mind. Maybe a caterham or ariel atom. As your platform, you want something that handles good and is light. You dont want an M3 as you would have throw everything out of it and that cost $$ and is time consuming. its easier to make a car more powerful, rather then make it lighter.

EDIT:
I think I got that quote from another user from this forum:

Colin Chapman (founder of Lotus): "Adding power makes you faster on the straights; subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."

While thats all true... except hte Porsche (I've yet to hear Porsche and Affordable used in the same sentence, and then throw out M cars :rofl: )

The problem with "adding lightness" is you have to sacrifice EVERYTHING creature comfort to drop 3/10ths off 0-60 where as it's not all that hard to throw on 100hp on any of the cars he's listed to shave off those same 3/10ths... or more in the case of the Miata. Toss in engine swapped cars and you can maintain your creature comforts, keep or lose weight, and gain 2-3x the power. And then gain some handling with proper suspension tweaks and massive amounts of tire :D

Lightness does have the huge advantage of usually being less expensive to go fast, tires are far less expensive on smaller narrower wheels and lighter cars aren't so hard on parts.

Isn't the LS1 the lightest V8 out there? Aluminum and all...
In production, pretty close (audi rs4 v8 beats it by about 10 lbs). The Buick variant of the 215 v8 is a hair over 300lbs ready to run... thats nearly 150lbs less than anything on the market now. It was all aluminum and when manufactured by Buick Die Cast (ie. high precision)... when Rover got ahold of it they cheapened the design and added 75lbs.

I though you were talking about the new m3. lol. making that into a racing car would be fun. take out the whole cockpit, leather, sat nav. lol. ouch, I dont think I could do it. E36 is muuuuch better. I ve seen plenty of race speced E36 around my country club. But then even so, the stock E36 is 200Kb heavier than a stock FD. thats still a noticeable difference. Take out every seat, glass, door panels and you still might be a bit shy of the stock FD weight. You can't beat the light weight of a rotary !! ^^ lol.

to see what FD3S is all about I usually quote people to this video:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HezsZgVFUXU[/YOUTUBE]

for me FD is better then sex, but then again, I m a rotary kinna guy ^^ lol


Oh yes you can... it's an an LS1 swap :D. The 13b-rew on those, after turbos and intercoolers etc... the 13b weighs the same as an LS... you can shave some weight with a single turbo conversion and an SS header but anything else and you could do the same to shave weight with an LS swap.
 
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Oh yes you can... it's an an LS1 swap :D. The 13b-rew on those, after turbos and intercoolers etc... the 13b weighs the same as an LS... you can shave some weight with a single turbo conversion and an SS header but anything else and you could do the same to shave weight with an LS swap.

13b rew comes stock with turbos and an intercooler. I'm not a piston guy but I think the LS is that chevy engine aka V8. if so then there is no way that V8 with tranny is going to be lighter then a rotary. Dont forget doing further force induction on that V8.
 
You wouldn't need to do FI on the V8. Turbos ruin the weight advantage of rotaries.
 
You wouldn't need to do FI on the V8. Turbos ruin the weight advantage of rotaries.

you would, otherwise this would happen:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S_TO0WHYRs[/YOUTUBE]

13B rew with turbos and tranny is still lighter than any LS1 engine with chevy tranny.

Wikipedia says this:
"The weight of a bare LS1 longblock is 388lbs and a complete 13B is 258lbs"

those are the only numbers I found though. Its gunna be really hard to find some proper tests though.
 
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The 13b in my Midget weighs ~250lbs as a shortblock according to the guy who ported and rebuilt it. A twin turbo longblock would be far heavier.
 
-My mistake, the E36 M3 is about 400lbs heavier than a turbo FD, you're right

-When it comes to weight, LS1/T56 combo (chevy V8 and the tranny that it uses) really does weigh just as much as a stock turbo 13b. Iron + turbos vs aluminum NA. In fact, from what I've read it seems like doing an LS1 swap in an FD actually improves weight distribution too - 50/50 as opposed to stock, which is good but not quite that perfect.

-I'm not HUGE on torque but I do know that Hondas annoy me (S2000 included) since there is nothing low down. I don't necessarily need 400lbft right off idle but I do want reasonable torque (therefore sorry S2k and Elise). Turbos are fun for me because even though the torque doesn't kick in until higher up the rev range, once it does hit it hits pretty damn strong. Fun, to say the least :D

-I agree 100% on lighter cars generally being cheaper, since everything is smaller (hence me looking for a Miata IRL).
 
Just get a Zonda?
 
The 13b in my Midget weighs ~250lbs as a shortblock according to the guy who ported and rebuilt it. A twin turbo longblock would be far heavier.

What do you mean shortblock 13b? you mean the single turbo one?

-My mistake, the E36 M3 is about 400lbs heavier than a turbo FD, you're right

-When it comes to weight, LS1/T56 combo (chevy V8 and the tranny that it uses) really does weigh just as much as a stock turbo 13b. Iron + turbos vs aluminum NA. In fact, from what I've read it seems like doing an LS1 swap in an FD actually improves weight distribution too - 50/50 as opposed to stock, which is good but not quite that perfect.

-I'm not HUGE on torque but I do know that Hondas annoy me (S2000 included) since there is nothing low down. I don't necessarily need 400lbft right off idle but I do want reasonable torque (therefore sorry S2k and Elise). Turbos are fun for me because even though the torque doesn't kick in until higher up the rev range, once it does hit it hits pretty damn strong. Fun, to say the least :D

-I agree 100% on lighter cars generally being cheaper, since everything is smaller (hence me looking for a Miata IRL).

Honda S2000!!! right there. Only piston car I would own !! perfect platform for for a race car. no torqe is only valid in the city driving. On teh track, your constantly gonna be in the high rev rage where those motors have the most power. Turbos are always fun. lol. I would start with a miata. Every respectful race car driver started with a miata. Also the parts and the car itself is dirty cheap now.

Also the LS1 in FD argument basically comes down to rednecks from texas who will have numbers to favor their side to rotary guys who will never understand pistons. It will never end, but to me rotary belongs to mazda, and a V8 belongs to chevy. Don't really see the point of switching it up.
But to be pedantic, "almost" before in your opinion meant 400lbs so lets see those numbers first :D lol.
 
What do you mean shortblock 13b? you mean the single turbo one?

My MG has a NA 13B from an '88 RX7 in it. Just the block/rotors/eccentric shaft/etc are around 250lbs.
 
Did you mention budget?

Porsche 914
Datsun 510

Heck even you could even buy a Boxster for less than 10k these days.
 
13b rew comes stock with turbos and an intercooler. I'm not a piston guy but I think the LS is that chevy engine aka V8. if so then there is no way that V8 with tranny is going to be lighter then a rotary. Dont forget doing further force induction on that V8.
I'm well aware of what comes in RX7's. I may not have owned one but I was a member of the community for quite a few years, and still am involved thanks to my friends having them... some swapped, some not.

The LS1 V8 from GM weighs, near as makes no difference, the same as a 13b-rew with intercooler and turbos. all that shit adds up, and fast. The rotary in those also has iron housings that the rx8 engine lacks (making them about 30lbs heavier than your motor)...

As far as transmissions go, uhhh the Type R trans Mazda makes is not exactly a featherweight hell the lighter variant of it in my miata is surprisingly heavy.

Oh and wikipedia... "source please" you can't pull weight info from 1 article and then from another and call it accurate. Several magazines have actually taken the 2 engines in IDENTICAL trim (i.e. everything needed to actually run) and guess what... 10lbs difference. All that iron on the 13b and it's 2 turbos add up.

Lastly, I have PERSONALLY seen a full interior LS1 FC + t56 trans and T2 diff and 5 lug front conversion in a GXL cross the scales at under 2800lbs... no TII can get lower than that. I have, along with several friends, spent entirely way too much time arguing with rotards at various meets. The LS swap in an FC (or FD) is a better sounding, more reliable, just as light, and just as good (or better) handling car than a rotary one.

Oh and lastly, the v8 swap kits push the LS as far back in the chassis as possible, on the FC they actually tend to have a slight REAR weight bias.

edit: one more thing, go LS2 and you get the larger bore needed to run LS3 heads and intake (or the aussie intake/head combo) which means you don't need any boost to safely, reliably hit damn near 500hp... so no weight penalties!

Get passed the "heart/soul" crap and the "brand loyalty" bs and when you want an awesome car, you gotta cross pollinate.
 
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Level: Just boost a 1.6l car. Get a long nose crank car, coolant re-route, 1.8l brakes (with some good pads), Tein Monoflex, a couple of chassis braces, megasquirt and a turbo or supercharger kit. The Tein's are the single most expensive bit, the turbo s/c kits are usually under 1200$ (1500$ retail) on the used market. Keep the power under 200whp and you can have a solid, reliable track car so long as you get a 1.8l torsen rear end, which you'll want anyway.


Did you mention budget?

Porsche 914
Datsun 510

Heck even you could even buy a Boxster for less than 10k these days.

Wait... where can I find a cheap datsun 510? Everyone I can find is either already built up or needs 10 years of restoration work.

On that subject, help me find an RX2 or RX3... either of those would be a kick ass street/track car :thumbsup:
 
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Wait... where can I find a cheap datsun 510? Everyone I can find is either already built up or needs 10 years of restoration work.

On that subject, help me find an RX2 or RX3... either of those would be a kick ass street/track car :thumbsup:

I guess it really depends on where you live. Out here in LA they can actually be found cheaply. If you live in the rust belt, forget about it.
 
E36. There are an insane number on US roads so finding spares is ridiculously easy and cheap (even M3s). Buying a much more rare car (RX7, NSX, whatever) is going to cost you in the long run for things you'll have to replace.
 
If you maintain it and don't throw a million PSI of boost at it 13Bs are reliable. Mazda only had issues with the FI cars, the NA ones have always been reliable.
 
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