Career Advice

S

shocksphere

New Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
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4
Location
Sydney, Australia
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BMW e30 318i
Alright, so basically i need some advice. I'm 21 and i live in Sydney. I am getting pretty serious about entering motorsport. I have wanted to do this since way back in high school, but i never seriously thought it was a possibility. However, after doing some research, i found karting to be a great way to enter motorsport and gain experience without having to spend a ridiculous amount of money.

Anyway, as i see it i have two options, and i really want some external advice from other people who might know more than me.

Ideally, i would like to go to a professional kart racing school of some sort, where i could learn and perhaps compete in the schools racing series. The problem with this is that the karting scene in Australia could hardly be described as professional, and there don't seem to be any kart racing schools in the country. The only kart racing schools i can find on the internet are located in America, Canada or the UK. This would be tough, as i would have to move to the country, find a job, find accommodation, find a mode of transport etc etc.

The other option is buying a kart here in Australia and seeing how well i do without any tuition. Really, at my age, i don't think i stand a chance going this way. So if i did this, i don't believe racing could ever be more than a hobby to me. :(!

Basically i just want some input, i'm tearing my hair out over this. If anyone here has lived overseas for a while and can tell me anything about their experiences, that would be fantastic. Also if anyone has any advice on what schools to look at that would be great too. Or you could just point me to a kart racing school in Australia that i missed and save me the trouble :lol:. Thanks.

I'm Simon by the way, hi. Sorry about this stupidly long first post.
 
can't give much input, besides the fact that if you only now want to start racing...you're probably to late to become so good you can make a living out of it...

(should've started at the age of 5 or so)
 
Yea this is EXACTLY what worries me, what if i go to all this effort and make it nowhere? Thats why i believe i would need to go to some sort of school, it would increase my odds, even if it didn't guarantee anything.
 
I'm in exactly the same boat. Except I'm 16, which is also too old...
 
Don't forget that you can race at a club level and have a ton of fun. Formula Vee isn't much, if any, more than karting. Heck, the running costs of my Spec Racer Ford aren't much less than the cost of a competitive top tier kart.

And I still get to race at tracks like Laguna Seca.

Being a pro is tough. Racing at a club level you really see how many folks there are with tremendous talent that weren't "pro quality" yet they are better than just about everyone. Or they didn't quite get the breaks they needed.

But if I were you and I really wanted to know if I had it at all... I'd save up about $6,000 US and fly to San Francisco, and do a 3 day class with Skip Barber's school at Laguna Seca. If you are a natural talent, then, well, you'll know.

And if that money sounds scary...well... the bad news is that it would just be the beginning for trying to build a pro career.

Steve
 
Counting on making it in professional racing is like counting on winning the lottery.
It doesn't mean you shouldn't play lottery (somebody does win these things), but you're best off having some sort of fall back.
Do some amateur racing just to have some fun, and you'll find out if you have talent, and you'll find out if you can't live without it (either as a professional or not).

I know I'm not talented in karting, (not that I'm slow), but it's still fun to do.
My dream (if I did win the lottery) is to own and run an indoor kart track.

I'm not certain what karting costs, but what's probably cheaper than that is what in the US is referred to as autocross, which is basically racing on a parking lot with traffic cones.
 
Hi Simon, I've sent you an email with a somewhat lengthy bit of advice and a couple of contacts. Hope you find it useful.
 
MadCat360 said:
Hi Simon, I've sent you an email with a somewhat lengthy bit of advice and a couple of contacts. Hope you find it useful.
Click to expand...

i do want to know you opinion on the subject...is he too late or not? is it still possible to make a carreer at that age?
 
Possible, yes. Likely? No. It's unlikely under the best of circumstances, and even less likely when you are 21 and have yet to get into any form of racing vehicle.

The only person I can think of that's gone down this kind of path successfully is Randy Pobst.

Having money improves your chances, of course, because you can spend it to amplify your experience by being at the track all the time.

Even those folks that started young had parents that poured in a tremendous amount of time and money. Schumacher's father built and owned a kart track. Heck, Schumacher had to bring sponsor money to get that first drive in the Jordan at Spa!

Massa's dad mortgaged everything he owned and either went bankrupt or came perilously close to it before Felipe became "self sustaining."

Steve
 
bone said:
i do want to know you opinion on the subject...is he too late or not? is it still possible to make a carreer at that age?
Click to expand...

I'd say yes. With hard work, I think he could make it work. If he tries for V8 Supercars he could get into that before he's 30 if he's a talent. But he won't be making money at it for a few years yet, or even breaking even. He's going to have to fund himself for the first few years, because he has no record in karting (which is big enough in Australia), so sponsors wouldn't take him out of the gate unless he got really lucky. I'd say he'll need at least 200,000 AUD before he can make it to a paid level, let alone a paid ride, and I'll bet that's lowballing it.

But he's definitely too late for open wheelers. His only realistic chance, in my opinion, is tin tops. At his age in a formula car he should have been racing Formula 3 or GP2 in Europe for a couple years now. If he was really stellar he'd already be in F1 or IndyCar.

I told him if I were him I'd look up the Commodore Cup, a feeder series for V8 Supercars. That ladder is short enough that he might have a chance, but he would have to spend more years in the CC before he had the experience to move up. He'd better be a fast learner, and he'd better find a really good coach.
 
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Sebastien Loeb started when he was 21, Johnny O'Connell started when he was 25, Damon Hill started when he was 23, and Jim Pace started when he was 27...

Skill and (especially) money are much more likely to hold you back than your age.
 
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And i'm back. It sounds like money may be my biggest issue, even bigger than my age. I'm working pretty much full time right now and getting other work on the side wherever i can to fund myself, but theres no way i'm going to have the money to get into cars right now. Karting is really my only option.

However i still think theres some room to move in that area. I'm going to spend the next month fully researching every option i have available to me. On my first track day that i went to i met a racing instructor who pointed me to Peter Finlay, who runs car courses in Sydney. What i may have to do is race karts for a year or two while getting coached in a car or something.

I also talked to a mate who spends a lot of time oversees skiing, on a really tight budget. It might actually be cheaper for me to move oversees to get coaching in a kart for a year or so. Anyway, thats a pretty radical step to take, but it might actually be my best option.

Sir Stiggton, out of interest, what are you thinking of doing?
 
Racing is huge fun in whatever discipline you choose, but it's expensive. Even in karting, you're looking at a minimum of US$5-10,000 to be somewhere in the middle of the pack. It genuinely doesn't matter how much talent you have, if you can't buy a new set of tyres for every race and can't afford engine rebuilds every 6-15 hours (depending on the series) then there's no way you can win. There's obviously a cost saving if you do it all yourself, but it requires time to learn and the investment in the machinery to do it.

Now I know it sounds negative, but it's so addictive, even if you set out trying to save costs, it'll be almost impossible not to spend the money when a new set of tyres will get you 0.1s and you're 0.1s off the top 10 in qualifying!

I think realistically, you'll be incredibly lucky to become a pro. You can probably count the number of drivers who make money from driving here in the UK on your fingers. For many, it's not exactly a wealthy existence either! You're probably better to just have a bit of fun and focus on another career that can support your racing. If anything comes as a result of your driving, then it's a bonus, but the odds are stacked against you (and me!) I'm afraid!
 
I don't want to sound negative either but if you don't have the money then you're basically screwed. The only realistic thing you can do is get some karting practice then bail out, raise money (yes, that means working hard and stuff) until you can finance your own racing and have some fun. Turning pro at 21 with barely any money is very, very hard.

Don't get sad tough, that's exactly what I'm going to do. Went to karting school, going to race 2 or 3 stages in the national championship, then bail out (because I'm quite realistic that catching a sponsor in your first 2 outings is impossible), raise the money and come back.

Another thing you have to worry about is the learning curve. You really, really have to consider this. The damn things are hard to drive. Rental experience doesen't mean shit, I rate it about 5%. To sum it up: get to school as fast as you can and just keep working hard.

I wish you all the best.
 
One thing you might want to decide early on is what series you want to race in professionally. Do you want to do V8 Supercars, or do you want to go to Le Mans, or do you want to race in Formula 1, or maybe NASCAR? Because there are pretty good ladder systems for all of those, even if you're not really required to follow them to the letter, they can guide you nicely towards your goal.

I decided early on that I wanted to race at Le Mans, so I found that to get there from here I'd have to race in Koni Challenge, then Grand Am Rolex, then American Le Mans and then Le Mans. It's probably a 7-10-year path from Koni Challenge.
 
MadCat360 said:
Do you want to do V8 Supercars, or do you want to go to Le Mans, or do you want to race in Formula 1, or maybe NASCAR?
Click to expand...
F1 is almost impossible, let's admit it. He should have been in single seaters, maybe in F1 already. Look at Alguersuari - 19 years old and already in F1.

My best bet would be V8 Supercars or any other form of touring car series as the "old" guys always find a place there and often do good. Another nice series would be the Porsche Carrera Supercup if you're planning to race in Europe. But what about rallying? That would be interesting but I have no idea of the path you've got to go trough in order to race there.
 
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If you really want something then go for it!! no one can take that away from ya. but ... but just to let you know, with who you are competing against. I ve been to my local country club and I saw a fully race speced M3 and the dude that was driving it, was only 12 years old. ya, my jaw dropped.
 
I really think it is just a case of choose a series that you'll enjoy racing in that's relatively low cost and have some fun. Make sure that you can afford it on your own wage and then once you've figured that out, go through your address book and family and find anyone who owns a company or is high up in one that might be able to give you a few hundred bucks or, even better, provide some sponsorship in kind.

You'll ideally need at least a couple of seasons in karting to learn the basics. Don't forget that driving fast is one thing, but driving fast when 30 other people are all aiming for the same part of the corner is another. Finding the final .1 of a second can take literally years too! Here in the UK there's a competitive arrive and drive karting series run in semi racing karts that's very good value (About ?1k a season)

I guess I could give you a run down of my motley racing career and what my plan is and approx budgets (excluding vehicle and equipment cost)

  • Age 9-15 - effectively just practice sessions in karts at my local circuit (probably no more than ?500 a year!)
  • Ages 19-24 - 5 Years of national karting with one major national karting competition in 2006. (?1K per season)
  • Next season (26) - Caterham Academy Championship (?5-7k)
  • 2011 (27)- Caterham Roadsport B Championship (?6-10k)
  • 2012 (28)- Dependent on whether I can get any sponsorship at all either:
    • Caterham Supersports Championship (?10-12k)
    • Caterham R300 Championship (?15-20k)

It's likely at this point, I'll run out of options and either stick with the one I'm in for a couple more years and see if I can move up to GT if I can get some serious backing or (more likely), accept I've had a good time and realise I don't have any more cash to waste!

2013 or 2014 (29-30)- If I could carry on, I'd look for a GT3 drive in a Porsche for an endurance championship of some sort (cheaper than doing sprint championships as the cost is split between a number of drivers, and you usually get one or two 'gentlemen' drivers who need a pro and will ask for a relatively reasonable fee to cover running costs) (?50-70k)

2015 (31)- LeMans in GT3? (As previous season)
2016 (32)- LeMans in LMP2? (?100k?)

And it's about at this point that the ladder ends as I see it. To get an LMP1 drive, you really need some proper backing (as in ?250k+). Getting this is a lottery. Look at the majority of LMP1 drivers and they're ex F1.

I would say I'm reasonably talented but not a Lewis Hamilton. I'm not going to pretend I'm F1 material, but I've raced an F1 test driver and last years British GT champion and was within a tenth or so which could be found in setup and some proper training. Needless to say though, talent is not what wins it. There are people far worse than me in very high level motorsport, and people better than many of the F1 drivers racing Formula Ford, but it's just luck.

If you want to make a small fortune in motorsport...........start with a big one! But go for it if you can find the money :p
 
ArosaMike said:
2015 (31)- LeMans in GT3? (As previous season)
2016 (32)- LeMans in LMP2? (?100k?)

And it's about at this point that the ladder ends as I see it. To get an LMP1 drive, you really need some proper backing (as in ?250k+). Getting this is a lottery. Look at the majority of LMP1 drivers and they're ex F1.
Click to expand...

The way I see it, if they're not willing to pay the driver a salary in LMS/ALMS whatever, then either the team isn't worth racing with or the driver isn't good enough. Most likely the former. I saw a driver ad for the American Le Mans GT2 Viper, and they wanted 1.5 million for one driver, for one season. Basically they wanted the drivers to fund the team. They didn't do outstanding or anything.

Meanwhile guys like Bergmeister are getting paid more than 100 grand per season and they get to drive for a top team.
 
Ok here is an Aussie's point of view. Ok so nothing is impossible but you have a very hard road ahead if you don't have backing. Yes some people started late (especially in rallying) but they quickly started competing almost every week and were usually in a works team pretty quickly.

You either have to be exceptionally good (i.e you think you can take on Craig Lowndes and win) and have money OR you have to have more money than anyone else. That's the cold hard facts of motor racing.

The difference between brilliant and also-ran is rarely more than say 0.5secs, so if the also-ran can bring $500,000 per year to the table. He gets the seat.
 
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