Snow!

I hit some beasty black ice right outside my house earlier. That was fun :lol: Fortunately its only a small patch, but it still woke me up :p Not leaving the car on the road tonight - any one driving past may leave their mark on the pristineish Kangoo!
 
a) No, but I've been a passenger
b) No, why?

The fact is, that the E-brake slows the car down far too much, you should be able to get the car to slide with other methods, such as liftoff oversteer, scandi flick, and clutch kicking :rolleyes:

*sigh*
I don't want to be an asshole but...
If you KNOW how to drift a car e-brake doesn't slow you down too much or really at all under low traction conditions. E-brake is used to upset the car's natural balance, it does so by momentarily stopping locking the rear, which causes the tires to lose traction for a moment. When e-brake is used to initiate a slide it is used MOMENTARILY you pull it for barely a second. Liftoff oversteer is not a *feature* of all cars, feint drift/scandinavian flick requires a certain amount of grip on the front wheels and speed, clutch kicking is not possible in my car due to it being an automatic.

I suggest you watch Formula D once in a while, they have hydraulic e-brakes, in fact if you ask any drifter they will tell you that if you want good angle you are going to have to use the e-brake.

IIRC WRC guys use e-brake as well to enter certain corners such as hairpins.
I'LL PROVE HOW MUCH MORE I KNOW THAN ANYONE ELSE BY DRIVING MY CAR FASTER THAN THEM! YEAH!
He said that bad drivers use e-brakes, as I use it he is suggesting I'm a bad driver a good way to prove him wrong would be a race no?
 
*sigh*
I don't want to be an asshole but...
If you KNOW how to drift a car e-brake doesn't slow you down too much or really at all under low traction conditions. E-brake is used to upset the car's natural balance, it does so by momentarily stopping locking the rear, which causes the tires to lose traction for a moment. When e-brake is used to initiate a slide it is used MOMENTARILY you pull it for barely a second. Liftoff oversteer is not a *feature* of all cars, feint drift/scandinavian flick requires a certain amount of grip on the front wheels and speed, clutch kicking is not possible in my car due to it being an automatic.

I suggest you watch Formula D once in a while, they have hydraulic e-brakes, in fact if you ask any drifter they will tell you that if you want good angle you are going to have to use the e-brake.

IIRC WRC guys use e-brake as well to enter certain corners such as hairpins.

He said that bad drivers use e-brakes, as I use it he is suggesting I'm a bad driver a good way to prove him wrong would be a race no?

Firstly, I think the issue is with shit tires here (and don't go "studs are illegal" on me, because even a set of winter tires will do) When you have actual good tires, pulling the handbrake on snow feels like dropping an anchor, it's horrible. If you don't have enough grop for doing scandinavian flicks, you shouldn't be playing around anyway, you need a measure of grip just to be safe..

Secondly, Formula D and WRC are not really applicable for road driving :rolleyes: They both also use hydraulic handbrakes (which slow you down less because they lock up *immediately*) Hairpins are also a completely different thing.
 
Pulling the handbrake momentarily in mid corner doesn't slow your drift speed down that much, you barely drop 800rpm of engine speed.

And prizrak is right, pro drifters rely heavily on handbrakes, they use it to initiate and to maintain the drift angle without losing speed, but it's very different from normal roadcar though.
 
I had to yank the e-brake multiple times to snake my way around multiple stuck cars on my way home from work, and it didn't, in any way, slow me down enough to notice it. Plus, it was actually kind of fun, I will admit.
 
Firstly, I think the issue is with shit tires here (and don't go "studs are illegal" on me, because even a set of winter tires will do) When you have actual good tires, pulling the handbrake on snow feels like dropping an anchor, it's horrible.

Secondly, Formula D and WRC are not really applicable for road driving :rolleyes: They both also use hydraulic handbrakes (which slow you down less because they lock up *immediately*) Hairpins are also a completely different thing.

Dude we had two days of snow so far. One day was actually snowing and the next day was left over snow that didn't get plowed yet. You need to stop with all of this "you need snow tires" BS because it's not worth it for me to keep a set of snows in a place that not only doesn't get a whole lot of snow but snow is cleaned very quickly and efficiently.

You also seem to be missing that we are talking about an AWD car here, pulling the e-brake doesn't slow you down that much (at all in my experience) because the fronts are still pulling and locking up the rears actually will transfer more torque to the front.

If you don't have enough grop for doing scandinavian flicks, you shouldn't be playing around anyway, you need a measure of grip just to be safe..
Scandinavian flick requires going a certain speed as well you are not going to be doing any of that BS in a parking lot doing 1st or mid 2nd drifts. Again you don't seem to be paying attention to what we are talking about here.

E-brake allows you to get sideways quickly and easily it also helps control your angle. Also snow drifting is a different from drifting in the wet or the dry.
With an AWD if I wanted to do get any kind of a decent slide going in the dry I would have to be entering at the top of 3rd to begin with (around 80mph or so).
 
-Have a look at the thread title mr. it says "Snow!" No-one here is talking about drifting on dry/wet tarmac apart from you.

-Pulling the e-brake and keeping the throttle going is *really* good for your drivetrain..

-Not for a second did I miss the fact that we were talking about 4wd here.

-You can do scandinavian flicks very easily on a parking lot, just do a figure 8.. (However I personally think the parking lot stuff gets boring quite quickly)

-You don't need a lot of speed AT ALL for scandinavian flicks.
 
Just a general remark, pointed at no one in particular:

I really would recommend learning to drive properly under normal road conditions first, before I would argue about drifting in the snow.

It usually takes until someone is 25 years old or so and at least one accident, until enough experience is collected to really have a word in how to drive properly.
 
You guys have no idea how much snow there is here now :p at least 1m in our driveway >.<
 
Just a general remark, pointed at no one in particular:

I really would recommend learning to drive properly under normal road conditions first, before I would argue about drifting in the snow.

It usually takes until someone is 25 years old or so and at least one accident, until enough experience is collected to really have a word in how to drive properly.

That, my good man, is complete bullshit. I'm not claiming I'm a good driver, but it's still utter crap.
 
That's quite a bold statement for someone who hasn't experienced to be 25 yet ;)
 
Don't mix up controlling race cars on a track with mastering a car in daily traffic.

In daily traffic there are hardly ever any situations, where racing drivers or stunt driver can make use of their talents. Mostly because their is too much traffic and the other drivers aren't racing drivers or stunt drivers, therefore lack the discpline and abilities of folks going round in circles on a closed off track and are as predictable as the lotto numbers.

But also because you have to deal with tons of traffic rules, cyclists, pedestrians, animals on the road, constantly changing road conditions, people who suddenly brake without indicating, people taking your right of way, teenage idiots who think they are Michael Schumacher and race themselves in pimped up VW Polos, etc., etc.

There is one anecdote about Ayrton Senna, who got stopped by the British police for speeding. The policeman didn't recognize him, so he asked him:
"Who do you think you are? Nigel Mansell?"
"No, I'm Ayrton Senna".
The reaction of the policeman was not nice...

Anyway, my point being: Racing a car and driving a car are two completely different things. Young racing drivers, like Sebastian Vettel or Lewis Hamilton, don't have more experience in normal traffic, than any other guy at their age (probably even less, because they spend most of their time on tracks) and will probably make the same mistakes and collect points on their licenses -- maybe even more than others, because they might think they are better drivers than others and can therefore stretch the limits more.

Nothing, I repeat nothing, can beat years of experience in normal traffic. And by years I mean years of driving hundreds of kilometers a week. Fooling around doing Scandinavian flicks or making donuts are no substitutes for driving.

My last car accident was in 1989. I was overtaking a car. was much too fast and therefore didn't realize soon enough, that the next car in front of me was turning off the road. So I crashed into him. The same mistake wouldn't happen again to me today.

When I last visited the region I grew up in, I drove along all the roads I used to drive, when I was 18-24 years old. Just for nostalgic reasons. I came to the spots, where I used to overtake other cars and frankly I was shocked. Because back then I had a heavy Opel with barely 100 HP and I thought: "I overtook here? I must have been stoned crazy!" Because now I know how quickly and unpredictable obstacles can appear on the road. I didn't realize or even think about the risks and the danger I put myself and other drivers in back in those days.

I'm glad I survived the times and luck was the biggest factor in that -- not skills. Two of my former friends/colleagues of the times didn't have so much luck and ended up around trees. One burned to death in his car, probably being alive and stuck in his vehicle. Nobody knows for sure, because it happened in the middle of the night on a lonely road and they found the burned out wreck next morning.

Another colleague of mine is now severely disabled, because she was flung out of the back window (!) of a car, being only a passenger, and flew 30 meters through the air, before landing in some bushes. It happened, because the 21-year-old driver went too fast into an Autobahn exit. It wasn't mandatory to wear seat belts on the back seats back then. She has rails and bolts and plates and nails in all of her body and has to take pain killers constantly now.
 
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I have to agree with MacGuffin on the age/experience thing. Perhaps there are few exceptionally good young drivers in normal traffic, but nothing prepares you for the sheer amount of stupid you are going to see other people doing on the road. When I got my license I thought I was the best driver in the world but looking back at almost ten years of driving I think it takes a lot of practice to become a considerate driver.
 
-Have a look at the thread title mr. it says "Snow!" No-one here is talking about drifting on dry/wet tarmac apart from you.
Good that you remember seemed like you were confused.
-Pulling the e-brake and keeping the throttle going is *really* good for your drivetrain..
Hmmm let's see:
- Left foot braking, an act of depressing both the throttle and the brake pedal at the same time to control understeer.

- EDL's, electronic system that brakes one wheel to force torque transfer to another wheel with an open diff (used in Quattro among others).

- TC/ESP/VDC, systems that apply brakes selectively to wheels in order to control the attitude of the car and manage wheel slip. Can also limit throttle input but they don't usually cut it.

These are off the top of my head and come as standard in many cars. You also might want to keep in mind that when you are braking w/o disengaging the clutch the engine is still pulling your wheels.
-Not for a second did I miss the fact that we were talking about 4wd here.
As you said before you have no idea how to drift AWD cars so why are you talking about it?
-You can do scandinavian flicks very easily on a parking lot, just do a figure 8.. (However I personally think the parking lot stuff gets boring quite quickly)
I agree I get bored easily too.
-You don't need a lot of speed AT ALL for scandinavian flicks.
How fast do you need to go? What cars do you have experience with? What conditions (there are different types of snow)? What tires?

If you get slowed down by the e-brake alot you are doing it wrong. I never had a problem with the car slowing down. I have quite a few drifter friends and even with a regular e-brake they have no problem with the car slowing down in the dry with semi slick tires.....

Something for you to watch.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzlrQHJYedk[/YOUTUBE]
It usually takes until someone is 25 years old or so and at least one accident, until enough experience is collected to really have a word in how to drive properly.
OK so I'm 26 and had an accident shortly after getting my license so I'm good then :D
I have to agree with MacGuffin on the age/experience thing. Perhaps there are few exceptionally good young drivers in normal traffic, but nothing prepares you for the sheer amount of stupid you are going to see other people doing on the road. When I got my license I thought I was the best driver in the world but looking back at almost ten years of driving I think it takes a lot of practice to become a considerate driver.
I agree I managed to stay out of accidents because of experience that let me recognize patterns.
 
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Firstly, I think the issue is with shit tires here (and don't go "studs are illegal" on me, because even a set of winter tires will do) When you have actual good tires, pulling the handbrake on snow feels like dropping an anchor, it's horrible. If you don't have enough grop for doing scandinavian flicks, you shouldn't be playing around anyway, you need a measure of grip just to be safe..

Half of your posts give me the feeling that you don't actually have a license. That or you're not really from Finland. Or maybe you've never driven in the snow before.

Having driven all three drivetrain layouts on all sorts of different tires in the snow, I can confidently tell you that quite often you cannot do a scandinavian flick; very often you turn the wheel at over 5mph and the car just plows straight on, meaning that the front tires hardly have any grip (yes, even with winter tires) and therefore you can't get nearly enough weight transfer to get the car sideways.

As far as the ebrake is concerned - have you ever pulled the ebrake on a moving FWD/AWD vehicle? It really doesn't sound like it. And besides, when I'm playing around in a snowy parking lot what do I care if the ebrake slows me down by .25mph? And the anchor comment is just plain bullshit, you have no idea what you're talking about so you're just making stuff up to sound knowledgable.

Just out of curiosity, when did you start driving and what did you learn on? Just wondering...
 
I have a license, I have a car, and I'm from Finland. If you plow on straight at 5mph you have shit tires, perioid. And if you have tires like that, you should not be playing around. Also, if you don't enter corners at breakneck speeds, and actually try to eliminate understeer, you'll get very little of it. I have only had one instance of excessive understeer this winter, and I've driven quite a bit. And I repeat, when you have good tires on snow, the e-brake is like dropping an anchor when compared to not using it in a 4wd car.
 
Half of your posts give me the feeling that you don't actually have a license. That or you're not really from Finland. Or maybe you've never driven in the snow before.

Having driven all three drivetrain layouts on all sorts of different tires in the snow, I can confidently tell you that quite often you cannot do a scandinavian flick; very often you turn the wheel at over 5mph and the car just plows straight on, meaning that the front tires hardly have any grip (yes, even with winter tires) and therefore you can't get nearly enough weight transfer to get the car sideways.

As far as the ebrake is concerned - have you ever pulled the ebrake on a moving FWD/AWD vehicle? It really doesn't sound like it. And besides, when I'm playing around in a snowy parking lot what do I care if the ebrake slows me down by .25mph? And the anchor comment is just plain bullshit, you have no idea what you're talking about so you're just making stuff up to sound knowledgable.

Just out of curiosity, when did you start driving and what did you learn on? Just wondering...

It's called being a teenager. At that age you know everything. :p
 
Don't mix up controlling race cars on a track with mastering a car in daily traffic.


Anyway, my point being: Racing a car and driving a car are two completely different things. Young racing drivers, like Sebastian Vettel or Lewis Hamilton, don't have more experience in normal traffic, than any other guy at their age (probably even less, because they spend most of their time on tracks) and will probably make the same mistakes and collect points on their licenses -- maybe even more than others, because they might think they are better drivers than others and can therefore stretch the limits more.

Nothing, I repeat nothing, can beat years of experience in normal traffic. And by years I mean years of driving hundreds of kilometers a week. Fooling around doing Scandinavian flicks or making donuts are no substitutes for driving.

My last car accident was in 1989. I was overtaking a car. was much too fast and therefore didn't realize soon enough, that the next car in front of me was turning off the road. So I crashed into him. The same mistake wouldn't happen again to me today.

When I last visited the region I grew up in, I drove along all the roads I used to drive, when I was 18-24 years old. Just for nostalgic reasons. I came to the spots, where I used to overtake other cars and frankly I was shocked. Because back then I had a heavy Opel with barely 100 HP and I thought: "I overtook here? I must have been stoned crazy!" Because now I know how quickly and unpredictable obstacles can appear on the road. I didn't realize or even think about the risks and the danger I put myself and other drivers in back in those days.

I'm glad I survived the times and luck was the biggest factor in that -- not skills. Two of my former friends/colleagues of the times didn't have so much luck and ended up around trees. One burned to death in his car, probably being alive and stuck in his vehicle. Nobody knows for sure, because it happened in the middle of the night on a lonely road and they found the burned out wreck next morning.

Quoted for truth, and a breath of wisdom. :)
 
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