Starter motors - should we get rid of them and go back to basics?

[edkwon]

Who here feels that this progression of technology in cars that make the driver increasingly disconnected from a pure driving experience didn't happen with the advent of automatic transmissions, fuel injection, disc brakes, increased weight because of safety equipement like airbags, and other things


but can be blamed on things like the introduction of keyed ignition and the starter motor?

One can argue that for a true driver to really be fully part of his/her car that not only must everything be done manually while driving, but the cars engine should be started manually with the traditional crank handle as well?

 

[Brother Michael]

You got the inspiration from here, didn't you ?

 

[EyeMWing]

Uh. When you consider that modern, high-compression engines will break your fucking arm if you crank-start them (which is why the handle ultimately disappeared), this is stupid. Disc brakes and fuel injection do NOTHING to disconnect you from the driving experience - if anything they tie you more directly to the actual functioning of the vehicle.

Now if your list had things like the automatic transmission, ABS and traction control on it, there might be room for a discussion. But we already have a thread for that.

 

[edkwon]

Uh. When you consider that modern, high-compression engines will break your fucking arm if you crank-start them (which is why the handle ultimately disappeared), this is stupid. Disc brakes and fuel injection do NOTHING to disconnect you from the driving experience - if anything they tie you more directly to the actual functioning of the vehicle.

Many old school car/performance enthusiasts prefer carburated engines to modern electronic fuel injection for the right type of car. Don't assume your preferences are the only correct ones.

 

[Quadrax]

Jeremy Clarkson has a lot to answer for. He continually says that knowing anything at all about how a car works is boring and useless.

 

[LeVeL]

christ, somebody's smokin something strong... How on earth does a starter motor, injectors, or disc brakes take anything away from the driving experience? I have a feeling that you're trolling us :lol:

 

[Spectre]

Many old school car/performance enthusiasts prefer carburated engines to modern electronic fuel injection for the right type of car. Don't assume your preferences are the only correct ones.

Those people are idiots unless they have a super high horsepower drag monster. Anything else? No. With the exception of drag vehicles, carbs have no advantage whatsoever over EFI.

 

[gaasc]

Looking at your post the only conclusion i can find is that either you are stoned, or you're taking advantage of the Q's prolonged absence

To be fair, i don't think you're only a troll, but this post man...it is troll-ish

 

[Vette Boss]

You'd rather have a Model T than a McLaren, then? All the high-tech stuff in cars today exists for a reason, man's continual urge to improve things. This is the push that makes everyone move forward. Using your example of a starter. How awful would that be, standing out in the freezing cold or baking heat, having to risk having your arm broken.

None of the advancements in automotive technology disconnect the driver, they all serve a purpose. Whether to make driving easier, faster or more efficient.

 

[edkwon]

You'd rather have a Model T than a McLaren, then? All the high-tech stuff in cars today exists for a reason, man's continual urge to improve things. This is the push that makes everyone move forward. Using your example of a starter. How awful would that be, standing out in the freezing cold or baking heat, having to risk having your arm broken.

None of the advancements in automotive technology disconnect the driver, they all serve a purpose. Whether to make driving easier, faster or more efficient.

Then why do so many 'true car enthusiasts' have a problem w a lot of technological advances such as ABS, AWD, AT, DCT, traction control, and other innovations constantly insisting that 'cars are better off without them'.

Do they have no idea what they're talking about or does the truth lie somewhere in the middle?

 

[CraigB]

Those people are idiots unless they have a super high horsepower drag monster. Anything else? No. With the exception of drag vehicles, carbs have no advantage whatsoever over EFI.

Even drag racers are moving away from carbs and towards electronic fuel injection. Actually drag racers have been using mechanical fuel injection for a long time...

 

[Quadrax]

Then why do so many 'true car enthusiasts' have a problem w a lot of technological advances such as ABS, AWD, AT, DCT, traction control, and other innovations constantly insisting that 'cars are better off without them'.

More often than not those people simply don't understand any technology that can't be fixed with a hammer.

 

[Vette Boss]

Then why do so many 'true car enthusiasts' have a problem w a lot of technological advances such as ABS, AWD, AT, DCT, traction control, and other innovations constantly insisting that 'cars are better off without them'.

Do they have no idea what they're talking about or does the truth lie somewhere in the middle?

They must all be so sure of their driving skills (either that or catastrophically stupid), that they'll never need such a thing. I doubt they ever used ABS or needed TC to pull the car up a snow-covered hill.

I think of so-called driver aids as a last resort. As a skilled driver, it is nice to have that confidence, that if I do happen to miss something, the aid can kick if needed.

 

[Top Geek]

Yeah, that'll be fun in -30C.

Go buy a horse 'n buggy and be done with it. Or just walk everywhere naked and start fires by rubbing two sticks together.

 

[argatoga]

Fuck hand cranks, they do disconnect from the driving experience. I compression start like a man: down hill. If there isn't a hill around I make one. It may take three weeks to arrange everything, but I am able to enjoy the true driving sensation of rolling down and dumping the car into gear.

 

[JipJopJones]

Those people are idiots unless they have a super high horsepower drag monster. Anything else? No. With the exception of drag vehicles, carbs have no advantage whatsoever over EFI.

I understand your point. But I love the mechanical simplicity of carbs and other non-electronic systems.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that ever since I was born, everything has been computer controlled and mechanical systems are intersting to me... but I'm like that for everything. (battery free watches FTW)

edit: perhaps "mechanical simplicity" is the wrong expression, but more along the lines for mechanical sensibility. Everything comes together and does something for a reason.

 

[2Billion]

I like a basic car, and I like a feeling of directness. That's why I like a manual transmission. But I'm not going to abandon clearly superior technology - everything you mentioned, pretty much - because it's not 'real' enough.

Fuck, I LOVE stability control on a daily driver. Yeah, annoying on the track, but I don't live on the track, I live in a city with a snow removal program that can best be considered inadequate. "Purity" becomes completely irrelevant when you're dodging old ladies in Chrysler Sebrings and Toyota Corollas with Baby on Board in the window.

Also, the issue with manual control is entirely whether or not you feel as though you can make a difference in how the car behaves. A manual transmission changes how you accelerate, overboosted steering does change how you feel the road. Starting by crank doesn't fundamentally change how the car starts. Going from carbs to EFI doesn't fundamentally change how we get power from the engine (though it does change how you tweak things, which might explain the preference). Going from drums to discs just makes thing stop better, it doesn't fundamentally change how you work the brakes.

 

[TC]

I don't see what the big deal is. I look at it the same way I look at ordering a pizza. I like certain things and dislike others. It's not a matter of only being able to like it plain or with everything on it, nothing in between.

 

[freeferrarisdonotexist]

On bikes less than 500ccs? Yep. Cars? No, unless it's a backup. I prefer kicking my bike over any day, and mechanical starting has the advantage of not requiring a battery, etc etc. But on cars, as a primary starter, it would be ridiculous.

And as was said, it doesn't really affect your driving experience. I prefer them on bikes because they are really not much of a hassle (unless you have physical problems of course), and are far lighter and simpler in quite a few ways than primary electric start (let alone electric only) bikes. But the size, complexity, weight and electric setup of cars negates all those benefits, and trying to start a car-sized engine with a hand crank is stupidly hard.

 

[Magnet]

I think modern medicine and hygiene is making people a bit soft too.