Starter motors - should we get rid of them and go back to basics?

[Blind_Io]

Some parts of the US were down to -50 degrees F. You want to be the one outside cranking your engine over by hand?

 

[Spectre]

I say we drop him in the wintry backwoods of Utah with a restored 1970s snowmobile and a GPS. Specifically a 70s snowmobile that uses carbs, a points-type ignition, utilizes a pull-starter, and has a two-stroke engine with mix-it-yourself fuel/oil ratio management.

I figure we can come check on him in spring and he won't have gone anywhere....

 

[VR6]

Getting rid of all this stuff would be wonderful for a track car, but for those of us that drive to work every day, no thanks.

Also some new cars don't have starters they just know the cylinder positions toss in some fuel, spark and start it up like that.

 

[Spectre]

Getting rid of all this stuff would be wonderful for a track car, but for those of us that drive to work every day, no thanks.

Also some new cars don't have starters they just know the cylinder positions toss in some fuel, spark and start it up like that.

Those would be the hybrids, all conventional vehicles still have starter motors.

 

[argatoga]

I say we drop him in the wintry backwoods of Utah with a restored 1970s snowmobile and a GPS. Specifically a 70s snowmobile that uses carbs, a points-type ignition, utilizes a pull-starter, and has a two-stroke engine with mix-it-yourself fuel/oil ratio management.

I figure we can come check on him in spring and he won't have gone anywhere....

You mean a SAAB?

 

[Spectre]

Saabs didn't have pull-starters.

I'm thinking about dropping him in the back of beyond with this 1972 Ski-Doo Olympique.

 

[VR6]

Those would be the hybrids, all conventional vehicles still have starter motors.

In the book im reading (how to tune and modify ems) They say that some new BMWs have this technology, then I did some googling and found nothing...

 

[Spectre]

In the book im reading (how to tune and modify ems) They say that some new BMWs have this technology, then I did some googling and found nothing...

That would be the Valvetronic BMWs. They can have a combination alternator/starter.

 

[CraigB]

What, like a golf cart? Does it turn the engine backwards for reverse too? :lol:

 

[Spectre]

What, like a golf cart? Does it turn the engine backwards for reverse too? :lol:

No, they replace the flywheel with a combination flywheel/alternator rotor, then put the windings in the bellhousing. Since any electromechanical generator is also an electric motor, they just put current into the unit instead of drawing from it and the engine spins up.

I leave it to you to decide if this 'convenience' is worth the massive repair costs when it inevitably breaks. Few other makers have adopted this technology due to potential warranty costs and angry customers.

Edit: This was supposed to be the first big step in moving to the proposed 42 volt automotive standard (as you can't really get 42V out of a standard sized alternator), but it looks like that's not going to happen. Thus this mostly useless leftover.

 

[CraigB]

I'll pass. It's hard enough to change a regular starter on many cars, let alone having to pull the transmission to for one of these starter/alternator combos...

 

[argatoga]

What exactly is the benefit of that? It seems to do the same thing as the starter, but in a more costly and annoying (German) way.

 

[Spectre]

What exactly is the benefit of that? It seems to do the same thing as the starter, but in a more costly and annoying (German) way.

The advantage was that such a system could easily generate the 42 volts of the new proposed automotive electrical standard, whereas your typical alternator of the day (and today) couldn't do that. It was supposed to be the Next Big Thing and everyone was looking at changing to this type of system. The 42V switchover never happened, so BMW pretty much got left holding the bag with these things; kind of like how they got stuck with 'metric' sized wheels and tires in the 80s.

 

[Twerp128]

It's part of the experience of a vintage car yes, but to say it tames the thrill to not have a starter crank is asinine. I think a fuel kill switch and a big red starter button would be awesome in the Miata. I also think owning an old kick start Triumph would the bee's fuckin' knees. On my dad's list of favorite things owning a Honda CBX is like number three, between Cheap Trick and Michelob Dark.

Yet, I look at this and see six miserable carburetors all ready to make your life a living hell. Different strokes. . .

 

[Spectre]

It's part of the experience of a vintage car yes, but to say it tames the thrill to not have a starter crank is asinine. I think a fuel kill switch and a big red starter button would be awesome in the Miata. I also think owning an old kick start Triumph would the bee's fuckin' knees. On my dad's list of favorite things owning a Honda CBX is like number three, between Cheap Trick and Michelob Dark.

Yet, I look at this and see six miserable carburetors all ready to make your life a living hell. Different strokes. . .

Having owned a kick-start Bathtub Triumph, it's a PITA. The damn things stop running for no apparent reason and kickstarting one gets really old after a while. I had a CB750 with the kickstarter and it would start first kick every time, but usually I just tabbed the electric starter and rode away with no fuss.

 

[Twerp128]

That's what I hear, but it seems as if everything on old Triumphs is a PITA, but it's all fixeable with a 10mm wrench. Plus I gotta be cooler than BlaRo

 

[Matt2000]

Would just like to say that I have a hand crank for the Land Rover, and yes, I've used it. Sometimes when it's cold the pinion on the starter won't flick out.

 

[Spectre]

That's what I hear, but it seems as if everything on old Triumphs is a PITA, but it's all fixeable with a 10mm wrench. Plus I gotta be cooler than BlaRo

Most old Triumphs weren't metric. They were Whitworth. I still have some of my Whitworth tools around.

And no, they're not fixable with a wrench. I owned one, and after I restored it it was considered one of the most reliable ones in the area... and I still ended up hauling it home in the back of a pickup truck on a regular basis.

For example, the core of the electrical system is something called a Zener diode. It's very important and very sensitive, doesn't like getting wet at all. So where do they put it? Inside the headlight shell, where any rain is going to collect. Nice, huh? Goes downhill from there, I assure you.

Would just like to say that I have a hand crank for the Land Rover, and yes, I've used it. Sometimes when it's cold the pinion on the starter won't flick out.

http://www.britishstarters.com/

Pre-TRW-takeover-designed Lucas starters blow goats. One of these gear reduction starters is one of the best investments I ever made on my Series IIIs - before I swapped in the GM transmission and used one of those gear reduction starters instead. I gave it to Milltek and he was never happier with his starts.

 

[Twerp128]

Most old Triumphs weren't metric. They were Whitworth. I still have some of my Whitworth tools around.

And no, they're not fixable with a wrench. I owned one, and after I restored it it was considered one of the most reliable ones in the area... and I still ended up hauling it home in the back of a pickup truck on a regular basis.

For example, the core of the electrical system is something called a Zener diode. It's very important and very sensitive, doesn't like getting wet at all. So where do they put it? Inside the headlight shell, where any rain is going to collect. Nice, huh? Goes downhill from there, I assure you.

Damn, didn't realize they were Whitworths. I have a cousin in law who owned a T140, think it was a early-mid 70's model. He did however add dual disc brakes to the front and a rear disc as well as having someone install an electric start and a custom harness, I think late he also installed late model forks with the brakes as well. He liked it and said it had decent reliability, but then he is used to Moto Guzzis and Ducatis so that may explain that.

Supposedly the 650's especially the early ones were the worst, but you trade off for a smoother more torquey engine that the 750's have. At least that's what I tell myself.

 

[edkwon]

You'd rather have a Model T than a McLaren, then? All the high-tech stuff in cars today exists for a reason, man's continual urge to improve things. This is the push that makes everyone move forward. Using your example of a starter. How awful would that be, standing out in the freezing cold or baking heat, having to risk having your arm broken.

None of the advancements in automotive technology disconnect the driver, they all serve a purpose. Whether to make driving easier, faster or more efficient.

They must all be so sure of their driving skills (either that or catastrophically stupid), that they'll never need such a thing. I doubt they ever used ABS or needed TC to pull the car up a snow-covered hill.

I think of so-called driver aids as a last resort. As a skilled driver, it is nice to have that confidence, that if I do happen to miss something, the aid can kick if needed.

I like a basic car, and I like a feeling of directness. That's why I like a manual transmission. But I'm not going to abandon clearly superior technology - everything you mentioned, pretty much - because it's not 'real' enough.

Fuck, I LOVE stability control on a daily driver. Yeah, annoying on the track, but I don't live on the track, I live in a city with a snow removal program that can best be considered inadequate. "Purity" becomes completely irrelevant when you're dodging old ladies in Chrysler Sebrings and Toyota Corollas with Baby on Board in the window.

Also, the issue with manual control is entirely whether or not you feel as though you can make a difference in how the car behaves. A manual transmission changes how you accelerate, overboosted steering does change how you feel the road. Starting by crank doesn't fundamentally change how the car starts. Going from carbs to EFI doesn't fundamentally change how we get power from the engine (though it does change how you tweak things, which might explain the preference). Going from drums to discs just makes thing stop better, it doesn't fundamentally change how you work the brakes.

Because they're idiots. All of those things either serve a functional purpose for those who aren't looking for a "pure driving experience" when they're driving down the street on a winter's day to get groceries, or don't detract from a "pure driving experience" whatsoever.

Because they're the same sort of Luddites that protested the arrival of the Industrial Revolution as a juggernaut to be distrusted, misunderstood, and feared. Oh, and I don't feel like breaking my arm when the engine kicks back.

Also quoted for posterity. Thanks