HDD as a permanent backup/storage device

MamesJay

MamesJay

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Joined
Dec 21, 2009
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I guess most people here can relate to the problem.
Tons of data and the question how to store and protect it.
First there were CDs, then DVDs, but these days with HD video and even photography's in RAW, the DVD is turning into the new floppy disc. Piling up and taking away space. And with 2,5' HDDs that can already store 500Gb, the amount of 100 DVDs, the DVD as a medium for storage...is dated.

My idea was to put all my data on external USB HDDs, at least 2 cause one backup is no backup, maybe even 3, and to put them away in a safe place, only connecting them to the computer when i need a certain file.

Somewhere I read that 2,5' HDD are safer cause they are supposed to be shockproof. I don't know how valid that information is. First I would like the 7200rpm speed of 3,5' HDDs, and then I'm thinking that the bigger-sized 3,5' HDDs are longer lasting, cause if devices are build smaller, usage puts a bigger strain on them physically.
I'm totally getting one or the other 2,5' HDD for everyday use, but for safe storrage I want to play it to the max and get the 3,5' models.


Any ideas, thoughts, experiences, comments?
Is there a best way how to store those USB HDDs, can they be locked that only reading is possible and no writing anymore,...and so on.
 
Since CDs and DVDs decay over time, using HDDs seems like a good idea ... but no Data-storage is really "for ever" ... even stone-carvings go away in some thousand years time ... and I don?t think HDDs can beat that ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_rot
 
Just get a 2tb and be done with it.

If you're worried about data, then buy two and RAID 1 them together.
 
efoolution said:
Since CDs and DVDs decay over time...
Click to expand...

I have CDs that are almost ten years old, and they still hold up. They are stored in CD wallets, and I only take them out when I access files. But I'm still worried about them. And for the measly 700Mb one holds, they're taking up ridiculous space. Those would be first to be ported to HDD.

I have a lot of goofy stuff (like the original Napster installer from back in the days :mrgreen:), that can never be used again. Or Seinfeld episodes encoded in 60mb, crappy stone age WMV. BTW, if somebody has really old WMV videos and cannot get the sound; just install the DivX;-) 3.11 codec. It comes with the WMV sound from back then.
Like I said, some old stuff, but it's like memories.

Even big companies and governments are worrying about the storage of data. So it's not just an issue for private people. With all information being digitized, the knowledge or the legacy of people is at stake.

When Blu-Ray became popular, I had hopes that recordable BDs would be the next medium. But for the capacity they can hold, they are overpriced. And a 100Gb BD-r is nowhere near. Away from the fact that recording 100Gb at once is ridiculous. Blu-Ray discs are good for movies and games, for average people they are the new MiniDisc. "Obsolete before release".
I mean, a 500Gb 2,5' HDD is kicking a BD-r's ass, from the store shelf all the way to the Museum of Technology.

Like mentioned, for storage I want to use 3,5' HDDs. But for everyday use, the 2,5ers are fantastic. Another thing, I would like to have SSDs for my computer. A computer shouldn't have any moving parts. But since I have not heard of any data recovery from an SSD that had a complete failure, I would have a 2,5' HDD at hand, to backup important files.

I don't expect HDDs to last forever. But if the data would be safe for maybe 50 years (including plenty of extra time), that would be enough. I'm thinking about a time frame of about ten years. That would be enough to move everything to the next generation of storage devices, whatever that may be.
 
I really wouldn't worry about CD/DVD decay unless you expect to be accessing your data in 20+ years. I have yet to encounter a disc that doesn't work simply because of age.

RAID might be a good solution. You have your redundant data, so if one goes down, replace it immediately and you'll always be ok. And you'll know as soon as you lose an HDD since you are using it (rather than discovering it when you pull it out of storage in a few months).

As technology moves on you'll be migrating the data to bigger and better media so its not like you need something to last 50 years.
 
MamesJay said:
But if the data would be safe for maybe 50 years (including plenty of extra time), that would be enough. I'm thinking about a time frame of about ten years. That would be enough to move everything to the next generation of storage devices, whatever that may be.
Click to expand...

Wishful thinking. 10 years is really pushing it, even though I still have some 12yr old Seagate drives that still works flawlessly. It's inevitable that you will lose some of the data, regardless the storage medium.

Best way is to go RAID 1.

Alternatively, you can always spend big money on SSD drives. Best way to store your data, as it's significantly safer & more durable than traditional HDDs.
 
I agree with using raid. I store my crap on a file server with Raid Z (pretty much raid 5). One hard drive dies, I replace it.
 
Buy two different brand harddrives, if possible put them in different locations, that should be safe enough. 3.5in HDD is fine, but if you're worried, try buying single platter drivers to reduce the chance of failure. As for rpm, I actually think lower rpm would be better for back up purposes, because everytime you start up the drive it puts a lot of strain on the motor, if the drive is lower rpm the stress of start up should be less.

Also, when you first got the drive, do this to test to it to make sure it's not defective.

http://www.overclock.net/hard-drives-storage/673210-good-storage-drive-replacement.html#post8530894
There are easy steps to avoid the quality control issues. Some of the drives are just bad right out of the factory, the rest are perfectly fine for years.

Run HD tune. Do a full error scan (takes about 8 hours), then do a full write zeros to hard drive (another 8 hours). Afterwards, check SMART for bad or reallocated sectors... if there are any, send back for a replacement. If there are 0, then the drive will likely last for years. All these tests can be done with this single program, it's rather easy.

Out of the 20 something drives i've ordered, there has been about 5-6 with bad sectors. It's gonna be the same with any other company when your looking at drives with this many sectors.
Click to expand...
 
I might note that leaving a drive unused for many years is not a good idea. It will rot.
 
Forget the HD Tune's full error scan, it takes too long and it's over rated. It's kind of like running memtest for 24hours, there is no need for it.

Just use Seatool to test all your Seagate drives. Run both long and short DST tests, and SMART check.

And for ppl that still uses traditional fdisk, it's pretty much the best way to identify whether the drive is faulty or not.
 
if you do decide you want HDD for long storage, i've heard you need to ocassionaly copy the data from it somewhere, format, recopy data.Due to magnetism and ?decay? (someone talked about cosmic rays, we are talking about LONG storage), have an effect on the disk platter
 
awdrifter said:
...if possible put them in different locations...
Click to expand...

The RAID-killer argument. :blink:
Like I wrote, one backup is no backup, and if the box full of RAID goes up in flames, it is one device...that is history. Storing data in a secure way is not that easy. I have not yet researched the possibility of hard drive demagnetizing. The whole issue is a can of worms. :?

Just as long as I don't have to deal with cosmic rays. I would feel silly if I had to equip each of my stored HDDs with a tinfoil hat. :lol:
 
Carbonite or another online backup solution.
 
MamesJay said:
The RAID-killer argument. :blink:
Like I wrote, one backup is no backup, and if the box full of RAID goes up in flames, it is one device...that is history. Storing data in a secure way is not that easy. I have not yet researched the possibility of hard drive demagnetizing. The whole issue is a can of worms. :?

Just as long as I don't have to deal with cosmic rays. I would feel silly if I had to equip each of my stored HDDs with a tinfoil hat. :lol:
Click to expand...

You don't really need RAID1 though, just use a image program to make a backup of the main drive periodically, then store the backup drive at least in a separate room. So let's say your PSU blows up and took out all your HDD, you would still have a full image on another drive.
 
Or get a Raid 1 NAS.
 
awdrifter said:
...just use a image program to make a backup of the main drive periodically...
Click to expand...

The plan is about finding a new long-time storage solution for existing data (see first post). I don't see another solution than a bunch of USB HDDs. The issue is, how to make it as waterproof as possible, by researching likely causes of failure.

Making an image of my system is on my list too. In my case I want to make an image of a new installed OS that works flawlessly, with all programs. That image would be static, meaning I would not update it. The focus would be on a perfect tuned system, any updates could cause problems in that scenario. If my current system had a failure or would get painfully slow in time, I would have a everything running again in no-time.
Making external backups of data, like documents or music I make, could be done manually. Those 2,5' USB HDDs are perfect for that. Just have one next to you computer at all time.
 
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HDD's aren't a brilliant permanent storage solution. Hence why enterprise storage still relies on Tape for archive purposes.

All of the storage systems I work on use many terabytes (even petabytes) of Disk (magnetic) storage. This disk is generally SAN or direct attached (HP MSA's etc) The primary reason for this is that you can have multiple writers to each mount point (disk volume) (which speeds backup windows markedly) and to speed restoration of data. As a general rule we try to keep 14 days and 2 cycles (Inc's & Full) on disk as most restores come within a 14 day window...

For long-term archiving - Legislative requirements here in Australia are generally 7 years. However some of the agencies I look after like to keep monthly data indefinitely. For this the only real solution is Tape - LTO-4 is the current standard and holds 800 GB per tape uncompressed. LTO-5 is due out soon and this will boost it to 1.5TB per tape uncompressed (~3TB compressed)

For Archiving purposes LTO tapes are designed for 15-30 years storage..

However, on a personal level - nothing I have here isn't anything I would lose a heap of sleep over if it went... Photos would be the only thing that I'd like to not lose. I have them stored on a RAID array and just replace any disks that fail. Pretty much everything else can be replaced by getting it from the internet (who really needs to keep TB's of movies/tv shows/pr0n anyway?)

If you want an alternative to local storage you can always go with a cloud storage option (using a gmail account as a ftp file store is one option) you just have to hope that they don't go down as it's not a solution that has any SLA's attached to it!

So basically - Disk is a good (quick) solution for storing data but I wouldn't be relying on coming back to it in 50 years and expect it to be there.. However, disk is cheap. So buying a 500gb 2.5" USB Drive, dumping your stuff on it and leaving it at a friend/relative's place is a good cheap way of off-site data storage. It's cheap insurance against theft/fire.
 
@gti138

Interesting inside. The 50 years I mentioned were excessive. It was an estimate that would include plenty of headroom (so to speak). Like I wrote, I have CDs that are close to 10 years old, so that would be a time period i can overlook, a period of time that the carrier of the data should be able to survive. Without any deterioration, unless caused by wrong handling.

I'm obsessive when it comes to the handling of data. For example, I never used a disc burner faster than half the burning speed it was built for. Like my 16X DVD burner has never seen any 16X, I always burn at 8X. Some might say it's funny or a waste. But my low failure rate (as far as computer stuff in general) is all the proof I need.

Online storage (which is limited or expensive) would only be interesting for me if I would travel a lot. Kind of a movie server and stuff like that, or something work related.

Funny that you've mentioned photos. One time a friend of mine brought me his laptop that caught a virus. It would start and all, but as soon as Windows was loaded, the virus took over everything. He told me he had family photos on the computer, pictures he made the year before(!). :shock2: And he never bothered to make a backup. :blink: And it's not like he didn't care, the guy was close to a nervous breakdown. But somehow it never entered his mind that his laptop could have a failure, and that his family photos would be lost. That's how some (if not a lot of) people handle the issue. Something I will never understand. BTW, I was able to get to the data with an anti virus rescue CD. <_<

Strange that companies still rely on tape. My first thought is "heat resistance" when I hear tape. I have this vision of tape, sticking together and melting... :lol:

If you're in the business, you know what a major issue the storage and protection of data is, these days. In general, in the big picture. There is a whole culture at stake.

I think for the consumer, HDDs are the way to go. I just want to avoid mines and mistakes. I gotta have a plan, and a plan B.
 
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