The real reason for Arizona's new immigration law

No. If they run across someone without proper id they send them across the boarder. Is this a bit extreme? Yes, but what other choice do they have?
Actually, in this law, they detain them in the local jail and then ICE deals with them.

And the "other choice" is to deal with the violence, not the immigration. Increase the resources for the cops so they can better deal with the violence, not load them up with even more responsibility to deal with the immigration.
 
Actually, in this law, they detain them in the local jail and then ICE deals with them.

That's what I meant.

And the "other choice" is to deal with the violence, not the immigration. Increase the resources for the cops so they can better deal with the violence, not load them up with even more responsibility to deal with the immigration.

They will still be reacting to violence. Doing an I.D. check isn't a laborious procedure.
 
Ahh, you must be a Bush Jr. supporter!
I am a strong supporter of my personal beliefs and no one man.

I really don't see what the big issue is here. Is it that inconvenient for people to carry their identification with them? We all do it anyways. I haven't read the exact law and only know the outline of it so I don't know if it specifically states that you must carry immigration papers with you at all times, but either way I don't see why a driver's license cant cut it - cops can (and do) quite easily check those against their database to see if its valid. This small inconvenience is a small price to pay for reduced crime rates, a secure border, less drug smuggling, and upholding the law, if you ask me.
 
I really don't see what the big issue is here. Is it that inconvenient for people to carry their identification with them?
It's not about "convenience". It's about being suspected of being illegal, and having to prove that you're legal. It flies in the face of the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Fourteenth Amendments. It flies in the face of the burden of proof and presumption of innocence that our due process laws are held to.

I haven't read the exact law and only know the outline of it so I don't know if it specifically states that you must carry immigration papers with you at all times, but either way I don't see why a driver's license cant cut it
It does specifically state immigration papers. A driver's license does not cut it.

This small inconvenience is a small price to pay for reduced crime rates, a secure border, less drug smuggling, and upholding the law, if you ask me.
How is this guaranteeing reduced crime rates? It is not addressing the violence issue, it is addressing an immigration issue.

How is this securing the border? By definition, illegal immigrants have already crossed the border. If you want to secure the border, start at the border.

How will this address drug smuggling? If the police suspect you of carrying drugs, they are allowed to search you. This new law does nothing to change that.

How will this address upholding the law? Is deporting some illegal immigrants an acceptable price to pay for the harassment of legal immigrants who are already upholding the law?
 
If this wasn't a critical year for electing federal politicians, no one would have cared. As stated before, they are enforcing a federal law ignored.
One side would gladly exploit immigrants for votes, the other side for labor. Are both sides on the up and up?

What about...and call me crazy...making it easier to become a citizen, so half terrified immigrants do not have to rely on Coyotes who will extort them, exploit them, harm them? No, that would be too easy. Better to keep them poor so they either vote democrat or labor for republicans.

Next time one of you smoke pot, and are championing the cause of illegal immigrants, take a moment to think of where those drugs came from. Until we either make drugs legal, or curb our ridiculous appetite for them, the violence will only continue.

I may have never mentioned this, but I have been racially profiled in my city; I was in a neighborhood not known for my race, and was pulled over, questioned and searched for drugs, as they assumed I was there for that.
 
The issue isn't immigration though, it is illegal trespassing done by Mexican cartels.
 
The issue isn't immigration though, it is illegal trespassing done by Mexican cartels.

Tell that to the rather uninformed people who think otherwise. God damn, even the Hispanics at work think this law is a great idea.

This isn't just about deporting illegals, its also about keeping them out. Hence the secure border, reduced drugs, etc comments

We will always have a loose border with Mexico; think of it as a political safety valve. If we were to patrol our border as Mexico does with their own, the Mexican government will be overthrown in short order. America needs the cheap labor, the drugs and Mexico needs American money, hence why Mexican politicians are doing very little. And why not? Since Mexico operates in a sort of caste system, it's shoves off their second class citizens, those with indigenous blood, to us. And they almost obediently bring back money.

I sympathize with the illegal immigrants, those genuinely want to come here for work. It's just that...they are breaking the law. And we have to abide by laws.
 
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What would be a good idea, but won't happen, would be for both the U.S. and Mexican governments to go down there and annihilate the cartels at their source. But Mexico won't be for it (U.S. military in their country and corruption of local government in the area).
 
If this wasn't a critical year for electing federal politicians, no one would have cared.
I'm as cynical as you are when it comes to stuff like that, but I have to disagree. This is too controversial of a law to just ignore in favor of Missing White Girl Of The Week.

I may have never mentioned this, but I have been racially profiled in my city; I was in a neighborhood not known for my race, and was pulled over, questioned and searched for drugs, as they assumed I was there for that.
I've been profiled, too, but not for race. I need two hands to count the number of times I'd been stopped as a teenager at night, and the first thing the officer said was something like "Got any weed in the car? No? Mind if I take a look?". Even when not even moving and just sitting in my car one night waiting for some friends, I had an officer come up to me and want to search my car. And then after arguing about my rights and subtle threats to haul me in for "disobeying an officer" or some such offense, they would leave me alone.

Anyone who thinks that this "isn't that much of a disruption", and that they "don't have anything to worry about if they're legal" clearly hasn't endured blatant profiling or harassment from the police before.

This isn't just about deporting illegals, its also about keeping them out. Hence the secure border, reduced drugs, etc comments
You haven't actually addressed any counter-points I raised. You just repeated yourself. ;)
 
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I've been finding it funny all the controversy about this. There was even a joke from someone about boycotting Arizona brand ice tea, and some idiots joined it, not knowing the company isn't from Arizona nor stationed here. And boycotts in Chicago at the Cubs game against the Diamond backs. It's all so pathetic if you ask me. The law says nothing about Mexico, Mexicans, or Hispanics in general. It's not about race, but everyone knows where the problems are coming from, so they're pulling the race card. Must be nice, living hundreds of miles away from the problem. Must be nice.
 
That sort of thing is always stupid, it's like pouring out great, expensive French wine in the gutter because you don't agree with French foreign policy. It's fundamentally silly.
 
Arizona deputy shot by suspected drug trafficker, officials say
By the CNN Wire Staff
April 30, 2010 11:12 p.m. EDT

(CNN) -- A sheriff's deputy in central Arizona was shot Friday afternoon by a suspected drug trafficker, authorities said.

The Pinal County deputy, who was not immediately identified, contacted authorities after being wounded in the desert, saying he had been shot by an illegal immigrant with an AK-47, said Lt. Tammy Villar, a sheriff's spokeswoman.

The deputy radioed that he had encountered five men, some wielding long guns and handguns, and said they were carrying a large amount of marijuana.

At one point the deputy lost radio contact with authorities, leading to a search by foot and by air for him and the shooter, according to CNN affiliate KNXV. Video from the scene shows that the deputy was located while sitting in desert brush, surrounded by cactus. He was able to walk to a helicopter that airlifted him to a hospital.

A spokeswoman at Casa Grande Regional Medical Center confirmed that the deputy was being treated there Friday evening. He was in good condition with stable vital signs, conscious and comfortable, she said.

The deputy was shot in the left abdomen and suffered a superficial wound, law enforcement sources said.

The search for the shooter continued into the evening.

The shooting comes amid a national debate over Arizona's tough new immigration law, which allows police to demand proof of legal residency. Arizona lawmakers say the law is needed because the federal government has failed to enforce border security with Mexico, allowing more than 450,000 illegal immigrants to move into the state.

Pinal County is between Phoenix and Tucson and has been described as a key transit point for illegal immigrants and drug traffickers. Sheriff Paul Babeu said an estimated 80 percent of illegal immigrants pass through his county along the way to other locations.

Earlier this week, a CNN crew spent 12 hours on patrol with Pinal County deputies. In that time, the deputies captured more than 50 suspected illegal immigrants and about 2,000 pounds of marijuana.

Deputies in the department routinely patrol for illegal immigrants and smugglers, and it is not uncommon for them to be in the field alone, officials said. It was not immediately clear what led the deputy to engage with the shooter Friday.

The shooting is sure to heat up the debate around the new Arizona law. Critics say the law is unconstitutional and will lead to racial profiling, which is illegal. But Republican Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer and others who support the law say it does not involve profiling or other illegal acts and will cut down on illegal immigration.

"Frankly this is just a very horrible story, but we should not generalize," Alfonso Aguilar, former chief of the U.S. Citizenship Office, told CNN's Rick Sanchez when news of Friday's shooting broke. "We should focus on the criminality of the drug traffickers ... not scapegoat undocumented immigrants who do not pose any threat to society."

Brewer on Friday signed a bill that makes changes to the immigration law, saying the changes will ease concerns about racial profiling.

The law, which will go into effect in 90 days, has already drawn at least two lawsuits and condemnation from the Mexican government and other Latin American nations. Prominent entertainers, including Shakira and Linda Ronstadt, also have spoken against the law. Some critics are calling for a boycott of Arizona, urging tourists to stay away and that no one do business with companies in the state.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/30/arizona.deputy.shot/?hpt=T1
 
^ It's obvious that drug trafficking is a problem, and that the violence of it is spreading into the US. I'm not sure how that fits in with letting cops ask for proof of citizenship. You think drug traffickers care about that?
 
I'm guessing you didn't bother to read the law. It specifically prohibits racial profiling.
Feel free to cite that section. What I've seen of the law states:
A. NO OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY ADOPT A POLICY THAT LIMITS OR RESTRICTS THE ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL EXTENT PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW.
I assume that's the subsection you're referencing; that cops have to enforce federal law. The law goes on to state this ...
B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON?S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).
Ah, if there is "reasonable suspicion" that someone is illegal a "reasonable attempt" can be made to verify their immigration status. You really think this isn't legalized racial profiling? Who do you think this law is supposed to target?


Just recently, Sen. Lindsay Graham threatened to pull his support of climate change legislation because the administration wanted to push immigration reform in response to this law. It's a catch 22; they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
I think the Democrats stand to gain a lot more than they'll lose by bringing up immigration reform now, especially in the wake of this law. Even if they don't pass anything (which they most likely won't by November) they can still paint the GOP as anti-Hispanic. It's a crass political move, one that frankly pisses me off, but they stand to gain from it.

Dogbert said:
How, pray tell, is health care related to old Soviet laws? Or is this just another "LOL OBAMA = SOCIALIST" jab?
Oh you don't remember that time when the Soviets firmly ingrained private insurers, private hospitals and private doctors into their medical system? Leaving no public option for healthcare? I'm sure that's what Spectre is referencing. :rolleyes:

Have you seen the last set of proposed reforms? Basically it amounts to amnesty (rewarding illegal behavior) - and that should never fly.
Awarding illegals. I always found that to be an interesting way of looking at things. Seems to me that it's more like holding them accountable for their actions in our nation. After all, being a US citizen isn't all rewards and no responsibilities. I think conservatives just like to paint everything as a security-risk; makes it much easier to "declare war" on it, impose draconian laws, etc etc.

What about...and call me crazy...making it easier to become a citizen, so half terrified immigrants do not have to rely on Coyotes who will extort them, exploit them, harm them? No, that would be too easy. Better to keep them poor so they either vote democrat or labor for republicans.

Next time one of you smoke pot, and are championing the cause of illegal immigrants, take a moment to think of where those drugs came from. Until we either make drugs legal, or curb our ridiculous appetite for them, the violence will only continue.
As far as I'm concerned, illegal immigration will not stop until we seriously reform our immigration system. If you look over the US' immigration websites for 5 minutes you'll realize how much of a clusterfuck, nightmarish process it is to get into this country legally. Even if we made the entire border a line of machine guns and razor wire people would still find a way in.

Like you say, the second issue is with Mexico itself. The US is the largest user of drugs in the world. We also put harsh penalties on possession of even the smallest amount of drugs. In my opinion, recreational drug use or the possession of small amounts of drugs should be entirely decriminalized. Not only would that seriously reduce the load on our police and prison system (allowing more money for things like border enforcement) it would also possibly reduce demand from Mexico, reducing the influence and power of cartels.

The law says nothing about Mexico, Mexicans, or Hispanics in general. It's not about race, but everyone knows where the problems are coming from, so they're pulling the race card.
Like you say, everyone knows where the problem is coming from. Don't pretend to be naive about the intent of this bill.

It's obvious that drug trafficking is a problem, and that the violence of it is spreading into the US. I'm not sure how that fits in with letting cops ask for proof of citizenship. You think drug traffickers care about that?
That's basically my thoughts as well. This bill will do fuck all to actual criminals and only serves to paint Arizona's legislature as a bunch of xenophobes.
 
Like you say, everyone knows where the problem is coming from. Don't pretend to be naive about the intent of this bill.

It's not about being naive, it's about being realistic. Recognizing the facts isn't racist.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the bill, so long as the police are required to provide probable cause for questioning the person in the first place, prior to requesting proof of citizenship. How else are immigration laws suppose to be enforced if no one is allowed to ask for proof of citizenship? Seems silly to me. On a side note, they really need to come down hard on those employing illegal immigrants. That seems to be the root of the problem itself.

I remember hearing somewhere how easy it would be for the government to secure the southern border, but they chose not to. But I suppose that is tin-foil-hat territory.
 
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It's not about being naive, it's about being realistic. Recognizing the facts isn't racist.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the bill, so long as the police are required to provide probable cause for questioning the person in the first place, prior to requesting proof of citizenship. How else are immigration laws suppose to be enforced if no one is allowed to ask for proof of citizenship? Seems silly to me. On a side note, they really need to come down hard on those employing illegal immigrants. That seems to be the root of the problem itself.

I remember hearing somewhere how easy it would be for the government to secure the southern border, but they chose not to. But I suppose that is tin-foil-hat territory.


But if you are a natural born American Citizen how do you proof you are a citizen? Seriously tell me how.

About the only way I can think of is to show your birth certificate as just a driver's license isn't going to cut it. Do you carry your birth certificate on you? I know I don't.

My birth certificate is locked in a fire proof safe in my attic. The original copy of my birth certificate got destroyed when we moved into the house by one of my dogs. We left a file folder with lots of paperwork on a desk and our oldest dog got into it and ate the birth certificate. I had to fly to Austin to get a new original copy and I don't want to go through that again so I keep the copy in a fire proof safe now.


If this law goes into effect it is just a matter of time before some over zealous sheriff deputy pulls over a young 18-20 year old Hispanic kid who is a natural born US citizen. Inevitably the kid will be a fifth plus generation American who's great, great grandparents lived in Arizona since before it was part of the US. Oh and he will probably be an army or marine veteran just back from Iraq or Afghanistan. Maybe he will be blowing off a little steam first weekend back in the states playing his music a bit too loud driving a bit aggressively or something like that.

He will have his driver's license but nothing else on him so no way to proof he is a US citizen. He will give the sheriff an attitude because that is what teenagers do and he will get arrested. He gets dragged off to jail and will probably end of sitting there overnight till things get straightened out.

How much shit do you think will hit the fan at that point?
 
But if you are a natural born American Citizen how do you proof you are a citizen? Seriously tell me how.

About the only way I can think of is to show your birth certificate as just a driver's license isn't going to cut it. Do you carry your birth certificate on you? I know I don't.

My birth certificate is locked in a fire proof safe in my attic. The original copy of my birth certificate got destroyed when we moved into the house by one of my dogs. We left a file folder with lots of paperwork on a desk and our oldest dog got into it and ate the birth certificate. I had to fly to Austin to get a new original copy and I don't want to go through that again so I keep the copy in a fire proof safe now.


If this law goes into effect it is just a matter of time before some over zealous sheriff deputy pulls over a young 18-20 year old Hispanic kid who is a natural born US citizen. Inevitably the kid will be a fifth plus generation American who's great, great grandparents lived in Arizona since before it was part of the US. Oh and he will probably be an army or marine veteran just back from Iraq or Afghanistan. Maybe he will be blowing off a little steam first weekend back in the states playing his music a bit too loud driving a bit aggressively or something like that.

He will have his driver's license but nothing else on him so no way to proof he is a US citizen. He will give the sheriff an attitude because that is what teenagers do and he will get arrested. He gets dragged off to jail and will probably end of sitting there overnight till things get straightened out.

How much shit do you think will hit the fan at that point?

I was thinking something like this earlier today. Any person could be pulled over/stopped in the street for an alleged offence (irregardless of race, gender, colour, whatsoever), have their immigration papers/proof of American ciizenship demanded of them, and then be thrown in the slammer for a few hours because they most likely didn't have any proof on them. Call me cynical, but I can see some cps wanting to use this as an excuse to throw people who may be suspected of another offence in the pokey for a whilse whilst they are investigated. Or maybe I've been watching too much Law & Order again :lol:

But seriously, you guys don't want to end up like us over here in relation to border controls, which you most likely will if your governments (state, federal, whatever) keep tightening border control laws. Basically, anybody in the country/trying to enter the country illegally gets thrown in a "detention centre" (read- jail) until they are processed, which can take years. Violations of human rights galore and Amnesty International is on our backs constantly (and with good reason IMO). I'm embarassed as an Aussie citizen of teh state of our immgration policies (thanks, Howard :mad:) and I'll definitely be voting on the basis of it (amongst a few other things that really peeve me off at the moment) later this year. Aka, Greens. Joy...
 
But if you are a natural born American Citizen how do you proof you are a citizen? Seriously tell me how.

About the only way I can think of is to show your birth certificate as just a driver's license isn't going to cut it. Do you carry your birth certificate on you? I know I don't.
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on any of this, I only just heard about it a few days ago, but why wouldn't a State issued drivers license be sufficient? I had to provide multiple forms of identification in order to get my drivers license, including my birth certificate.
 
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