The real reason for Arizona's new immigration law

While I'm completely against racial profiling, there are also other reasons to oppose the new Arizona law.

It will encourage mistreatment of workers. Illegal immigrants come to America, in part, because people are willing to hire them. Well now a sweatshop employer or an agricultural property-owner has no incentive whatsoever to follow OSHA regulations with illegal immigrant laborers. You can make them work as long hours as you want, for as little pay as you want, in as dangerous conditions as you want, and so long as it's still better than going back to Juarez, those illegal immigrants you're employing won't go to the authorities. Even if you don't care about the illegal immigrants themselves, we as a society don't want sweatshops and slave labor being perpetrated by American employers, do we?

This will effectively make it okay to commit crimes against illegal immigrants. Rapists will rape female illegal immigrants, because the crime victims won't contact law enforcement and risk deportation. Burglars and muggers will steal stuff from illegal immigrants, and the illegal immigrants won't go to the cops because they would then be deported. So, as a consequence, you're going to have American citizens running around committing all sorts of crimes and never being caught for it. That's going to have serious negative consequences on society.

.

Playing devils advocate here.

That could have their desired effect of having scared Illegal's move away. Though I'm willing to bet it will probably just push them more into either Texas or California, rather than back into Mexico. With that being said, there are a LOT of Hispanics moving back to their home countries just because the work has gone away. When you can't afford your house, electric, gas, water bills, you start to do things like drain the pool and let the grass over grow a bit.
 
Just to be clear -- and again, I am not an advocate of this law (for reasons detailed earlier) -- local authorities are NOT allowed to check the immigration status of victims of witnesses -- those are specifically excluded from the "legal contact" that can trigger a check if the officer has concerns.

Illegal aliens have *always* been the target of crimes because they have always been hesitant to report them for fear of deportation. That's nothing new, and I don't really think this law will make that any worse.

Steve
 
Can't the officer percieve the witness as a suspect?
 
Playing devils advocate here.

That could have their desired effect of having scared Illegal's move away. Though I'm willing to bet it will probably just push them more into either Texas or California, rather than back into Mexico. With that being said, there are a LOT of Hispanics moving back to their home countries just because the work has gone away. When you can't afford your house, electric, gas, water bills, you start to do things like drain the pool and let the grass over grow a bit.

It won't have that effect because, as bad as it will be, it'll still be better than living in the middle of a gang war in Juarez. The condition will just be a taint on US society, because when we allow awful things to happen within our borders, it's a poison that slowly affects the rest of society.

And while some of this goes on, I absolutely disagree that this won't make it worse. Of course it will make it worse. Any law enforcement official is now required to inquire into the citizenship of anyone "reasonably suspected" to be an illegal with only a few limited exceptions (that most illegals probably don't know about anyway). It was always a possibility, but with this new law and the campaign behind it, it's all but a foregone conclusion.
 
Can't the officer percieve the witness as a suspect?

Sure.. they could also claim to have seen the witness brandishing a weapon or dealing drugs. You do have to rely on the system and the fundamental integrity of your police officers.

If you treat witnesses like suspects, they don't cooperate, and crimes don't get solved (the assumption being that a crime has been committed and that's why you need witnesses).

When an officer considers you a suspect, they must read you your Miranda rights. Legally and procedurally, it's a significant thing that an officer can't do to just casually check your status. It would also leave quite a paper trail for a "bad apple" that could easily lead to dismissal or even criminal prosecution.

The officers willing to throw away actually solving crimes and catching the people that broke some significant law and hurt someone or stole property in exchange for getting to see if someone is an illegal alien has got to be a pretty small number... I hope. No law is going to stop officers like that, really.

mitlov said:
Any law enforcement official is now required to inquire into the citizenship of anyone "reasonably suspected" to be an illegal with only a few limited exceptions (that most illegals probably don't know about anyway).

I don't think those folks knew / know if without this law their immigration status could be checked. And really, the issues about unreported crimes against illegal aliens have been rampant for years and years. It's nothing new.

Steve
 
Last edited:
When an officer considers you a suspect, they must read you your Miranda rights. Legally and procedurally, it's a significant thing that an officer can't do to just casually check your status. It would also leave quite a paper trail for a "bad apple" that could easily lead to dismissal or even criminal prosecution.

No, you get read your Miranda rights when you get arrested, not when you're merely a suspect.

The officers willing to throw away actually solving crimes and catching the people that broke some significant law and hurt someone or stole property in exchange for getting to see if someone is an illegal alien has got to be a pretty small number... I hope. No law is going to stop officers like that, really.

Too bad this law makes immigration-status-checks MANDATORY, then, not just permissible. If an officer has a reasonable suspicion, he or she does not have the choice under the law to say "this would get in the way of what I'm really trying to do here."

I don't think those folks knew / know if without this law their immigration status could be checked. And really, the issues about unreported crimes against illegal aliens have been rampant for years and years. It's nothing new.

Just because something is "nothing new" doesn't mean that it can't be made much worse than it already is.
 
No, you get read your Miranda rights when you get arrested, not when you're merely a suspect.

Too bad this law makes immigration-status-checks MANDATORY, then, not just permissible. If an officer has a reasonable suspicion, he or she does not have the choice under the law to say "this would get in the way of what I'm really trying to do here."

Just because something is "nothing new" doesn't mean that it can't be made much worse than it already is.

You're right about Miranda -- that said, it still begs the question that an officer bound and determined to push a person's immigration status can make up anything. And just claiming "well, they said they saw something but I thought they were a suspicious" -- well, that's a good way for a crooked officer to end up in prison.

The law as I understand the amendments signed by Gov. Brewer specifically carves out witnesses and victims reporting a crime. In other words, it's MANDATORY that the immigration status of a witness or victim NOT be checked. An officer that checks the immigration status of a victim or a witness will be breaking the law.

As far as "much worse" there's just not more "much" to go. The idea that illegal aliens reported crimes prior to this law is fallacious.

There are plenty of concerns about this law, but making things worse because illegal aliens will stop coming forward isn't one of them -- as you aptly pointed out, most illegal aliens aren't educated or knowledgeable enough to know the niceties of law and have always assumed that contact with any kinds of officials could lead to deportation.

Steve
 
Anyone got a link to the amendments, I'd like to read them and finding the text of the original bill was already a pain in the ass enough.
 
I'm losing faith in mankind. I've heard so many people, who're of Hispanic decent or who appear to be, say that if this bill goes through they will get dressed up in green jeans, ponchos, and sombreros, buy a $200 pick up truck, and drive around blasting mariachi music and refusing to speak English. Just so they can get detained and file a giant lawsuit. It's kinda funny, but what troubles me is if this bill passes (unlikely) and we hear a report or two about a legal citizen being detained and screaming discrimination/racism, I don't know if I would be able to take it seriously.

While I'm completely against racial profiling, there are also other reasons to oppose the new Arizona law.

[snip]
Actually, I know someone indirectly who had something happen like that. My great aunt owns a small ranch in California and pays this nice guy from Guatemala to do work on her property. When its a big job, he knows trustworthy guys to help. Anyway, he told my aunt that one of the other land owners is refusing to pay a bunch of the Guatemalan day laborers for a ton of work they did on his property. Apparently he stiffed them and told them to call the police, if they wanted to risk deportation. Real prick.

They found his corpse in the creek near his property. Beaten to death, iirc.
 
In forensics accounting we just covered the case of an employer here in the area who regularly employs illegal's for massive projects then calls ICE the day before pay day to tell them where all the illegals expect to pick up their checks. That's just being a dick.

Oh, don't forget to report those undue gains and income! Unlike ICE, the IRS won't turn a blind eye to your misdeeds. And the IRS accepts anonymous tips ;)
 
In forensics accounting we just covered the case of an employer here in the area who regularly employs illegal's for massive projects then calls ICE the day before pay day to tell them where all the illegals expect to pick up their checks. That's just being a dick.
He's just asking for a shallow grave.
 
A lot of people in the general population are unaware of the fact that there is no official language in the United States. We assume that it is English, but as far as I know, it is not established anywhere in the constitution.
The part that throws people off is that we require people applying for citizenship to speak passable English. That's only because it is the de facto language. We have no official language and personally I prefer it that way.

I don't see language as a barrier in simple day to day tasks. I've had to work with guys who spoke almost no English and we did fine. Today I'm going to get some tamales at a carniceria where they can hardly speak English. Doesn't matter, I'll just ask for "doce tamales, por favor", in my awful shitkicker-accented spanish. :lol:

I don't know if I would be able to take it seriously.
I know what you mean. But no matter the pretenses of it, they would have a point. Maybe an even more effective one, since it would show that the cops nailed the most stereotypical Mexican in existence.

TomCat said:
They found his corpse in the creek near his property. Beaten to death, iirc.
Sounds like he got what he deserved. First off, he was a real prick. Second, he knew they were illegal and had no legal recourse to get their pay. He should have realized that the other side of that coin is that they could kill him for it and walk away with little fear of ever being caught.
 
I think I need one of these for my brown face: http://deprofiler.com/ :ninja: Incognito bitches!

I'm losing faith in mankind. I've heard so many people, who're of Hispanic decent or who appear to be, say that if this bill goes through they will get dressed up in green jeans, ponchos, and sombreros, buy a $200 pick up truck, and drive around blasting mariachi music and refusing to speak English. Just so they can get detained and file a giant lawsuit. It's kinda funny, but what troubles me is if this bill passes (unlikely) and we hear a report or two about a legal citizen being detained and screaming discrimination/racism, I don't know if I would be able to take it seriously.

Sounds like a blast if you ask me. If anything I'd do it just for the lulz.

Doesn't matter, I'll just ask for "doce tamales, por favor", in my awful shitkicker-accented spanish. :lol:

:lmao:
 
Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law

Maybe this was the actual real reason behind the AZ immigration law.

Last year, two men showed up in Benson, Ariz., a small desert town 60 miles from the Mexico border, offering a deal.
Glenn Nichols, the Benson city manager, remembers the pitch.
"The gentleman that's the main thrust of this thing has a huge turquoise ring on his finger," Nichols said. "He's a great big huge guy and I equated him to a car salesman."
What he was selling was a prison for women and children who were illegal immigrants.
"They talk [about] how positive this was going to be for the community," Nichols said, "the amount of money that we would realize from each prisoner on a daily rate."
But Nichols wasn't buying. He asked them how would they possibly keep a prison full for years ? decades even ? with illegal immigrants?
"They talked like they didn't have any doubt they could fill it," Nichols said.
That's because prison companies like this one had a plan ? a new business model to lock up illegal immigrants. And the plan became Arizona's immigration law.

Go to the link to read the rest of the story. I just saw this for the first time an hour or so ago. I must have missed it on the radio earlier.

Private prisons do have a huge amount of lobying power and they make a billionish dollars a year in the US too.

Worth thinking about it and very shady.
 
I just got through reading about that. It is said that anyone was even willing to put their name on that bill, and now that is came out who wrote it, they should be lynched!
 
I fucking HATE the people who negate some people as lesser people. Not going after anyone here, though.
 
I've never liked the idea of Private prisons. It is the shit heads who run them that encourage imprisoning small time pot smokers and the like.
 
Privatising the prisons is stupid. After all, a prison is a place where you're under someone elses control, subject to search and the likes at all times, and private people should not have that power.
 
The private prisons are so unethical on many levels, they shold be a crime.
 
Top